House adjourned at a quarter before Six
o'clock, till To-morrow, half
past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, 12th April, 1869.

MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee
-ARMY ESTIMATES.

Resolutions [April 9] reported-CIVIL SERVICE.
WAYS AND MEANS-considered in Committee.
PUBLIC BILLS-Ordered-First Reading-Paro-
chial Schoolmasters (Scotland) [72].
First Reading-Habitual Criminals [73]; Com
mon Law Courts (Ireland) * [74].
Second Reading-Pharmacy Act (1868) Amend-
ment * [37].

Third Reading-Civil Service Pensions [46];

Sea Birds Preservation [59], and passed.

ARMY-BRANDING IN THE.

QUESTION.

or not, the Authorities at the Horse Guards have acquiesced in the justice of this Memorandum or Letter without remonstrance; and, Lastly, If the statement in the paragraph referred to be incorrect, whether he can state what has occurred to give rise to so remarkable a state

ment?

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, in reply, stated, that his attention had not been called to, but, like the noble Lord himself, he had seen and read the paragraph in the Pall Mall Gazette. With respect to the statement in it, it was so far correct that he did feel it his duty to address a letter last month to the Adjutant General in relation to marking deserters a second and third time after they had already been indelibly branded. Some other statements in the paragraph, however, were not correct. It was not true so far as was aware that since flogging was forbidden a Memorandum was issued by the Horse Guards, insisting that deserters be branded again and again; and it fol and military offenders generally should

lowed, of course, that it was not in consequence of any such Memorandum that he addressed his letter to the Adjutant General. He was not in a condition to give the contents of that letter to the House, nor was he in a condition to lay the Papers on the table of the House. A correspondence was now

LORD GARLIES said, he wished to ask the Judge Advocate General, Whether his attention has been called to a paragraph in the Pall Mall Gazette of Saturday, March 20, in regard to mark- going on between the authorities at the ing Deserters from the Army with the Horse Guards and the authorities at the letter D; if it be true, as therein stated, War Office, and it would not be advanta1st, That since flogging in the Army was geous to the public service that he should forbidden by the Legislature, a Memo- make any statement on the matter. The randum was issued by the Horse Guards, noble Lord also asked if he knew what Authorities "insisting that deserters and had given rise to so remarkable a statemilitary offenders generally should be ment. He was sorry to be unable to branded again and again, without regard give him any information upon that to the first indelible mark;" 2ndly, That point. He was as unconnected with the in consequence of this Memorandum the Pall Mall Gazette or the writers in that Judge Advocate General "has just issued journal as the noble Lord himself; and a strongly-worded Memorandum or Let- as far as he was aware the letter, or copy ter to the Horse Guards, severely cenof the letter that he had written, had not suring the course pursued in cancelling been seen by anybody outside the official circle.

an original order against this repeated branding, and forbidding this punishment to be turned into a system of tor ture;" 3rdly, That, "it is very doubtful whether the Horse Guards have not infringed the Law" in regard to the place selected for marking Deserters; whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a Copy of the Memorandum or Letter stated to have been issued by him to the Horse Guards; and, whether

POST OFFICE-WEST INDIA MAILS.

QUESTION.

MR. R. FOWLER said, he wished to ask the Postmaster General, Whether the steam ship "Tasmania," carrying the West India Mails, which passed Falmouth on Monday, March 15, before three o'clock, in time for the Mails to be

landed and sent to London by the regular Mail, arrived at Plymouth so late that the letters had to be sent by special train; and, whether the weather was not most favourable for her to accomplish the distance in the shortest possible time?

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON, in reply, said, that the mails arrived in time to be sent on by the ordinary train; but in consequence of some delay in the landing they had to be sent a considerable part of the distance by special train. Inquiries had been made on the subject, and he believed arrangements had been made by which, when mails arrived near the time of the departure of the ordinary train, they would be landed immediately, so that no such occurrence should again take place. He believed the weather had been most favourable, and that the Tasmania had accomplished the distance in the shortest possible time.

"The Reports of Secretaries of Legation and of Consuls are now published monthly, as received the information therein contained at the disposal at the Foreign Office, the object being to place of the commercial classes, with as little delay as possible. Originally, these Reports were only published whilst Parliament was sitting, and they could be formally presented to the House; but it was found that much information was thus postponed till too late to be of service. With the intention also of giving the earliest circulation, the Foreign Office supplies copies every month to the Chambers of Commerce."

With regard to the Board of Trade, my own opinion is, it would not be very advantageous to produce a Report periodically of the proceedings of that Devast variety of subjects and go through partment, because they extend over a numerous and almost numberless details. I have considered the matter myself, and the balance of my opinion goes in this the Board of Trade to make any such way, that it would not be desirable for general and comprehensive Report as that hinted at in the Question of my hon. Friend.

ST. JAMES AND ST. PAUL'S, LAN-
CASHIRE.-QUESTION.

MR. R. SHAW said, he would beg to ask the hon. Member for North Devon, Whether the ecclesiastical districts of the vicarages of St. James and St. Paul's respectively, within the ancient parochial

TRADE RETURNS.-QUESTION. MR. POCHIN said, he wished to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is not desirable that Annual Reports should be rendered by the Master of the Mint, and by the Marine, Commercial, Foreign, and Statistical Departments of the Board of Trade, the same in character as the present Annual Reports rendered by the Board of Cus-chapelry of Burnley, in the county of toms and Board of Inland Revenue; and, if it would not be a measure of economy and convenience to discontinue the present separate publications of the Reports on Foreign Trade from Consuls Abroad and Secretaries of Legation, and issue quarterly, in a collected and arranged form, all Reports received during the previous three months? He was aware that it was no part of the duty of the Board of Trade to issue these Reports.

Lancaster, have within their limits the requisite population to entitle the vicars thereof to the augmentation of their endowments to the sum of £300 a year out of the funds vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; and, if so, what are the reasons for withholding from the said vicars the augmentation to which they are entitled by the rules and practice of the said Commissioners?

MR. ACLAND replied that parishes MR. BRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my hon. possessing the population of those two Friend in his Question has said what is districts would, under ordinary circumvery true-namely, that it is no portion stances, receive the augmentation, but of the duty of the Board of Trade to the Commissioners did not recognize the issue these Reports; but I am happy to principle that population alone, without be able to inform him that the Chan-consideration of other circumstances, encellor of the Exchequer has given orders that a Report with respect to the Mint should be prepared, and therefore as far as that part of the Question is concerned it is answered. With regard to the Foreign Department, I have a note from the Foreign Office, which I will read for the benefit of the House

titled a district to receive it. These two districts were formed about twenty years ago out of a larger district (Burnley), which was now a rectory, and were endowed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners with an income of £150 a year, the patronage being vested in the Crown and the Bishop of the diocese alternately. On

at Swatow, by Chinese soldiers, in which eleven seamen were wounded; and, further, whether the acting Consul at Swatow reported the operations of Her Majesty's gunboat "Bustard," Lieutenant Johnston, in conjunction with and at the request of the Taotae of Swatow against the insurgent town of Choo-chi?

an application being made to augment the | Taiwan-foo, and for the recent attack endowments to £300, the attention of the upon the boats' crews of Her Majesty's Commissioners was drawn to the fact that gunboat "Cockchafer," Lieutenant Kerr, the mother church, in the rectory of Burnley, was very largely endowed-to an amount, indeed, of £3,000 and upwards, as he had heard stated. The Commissioners were prepared to augment the endowments of the two districts up to £300 a year, immediately, and to continue the augmentation during the incumbency of the present rector of Burnley; but they proposed on the next vacancy of the office of rector of the mother church-the patron being a private gentleman that the augmentation should be a charge on the revenues of the mother church, and that the patronage should be transferred to the patron of the rectory. The patron, however, refused to entertain the proposition. On the 3rd of March, the Commissioners recorded in a Minute the principle which guided them in these cases, which was to the effect that, as the funds at the disposal of the Commissioners for relieving spiritual destitution were limited, they could not be, with a due regard to the wants of the country, applied in provid-jesty's Minister there, in case of damage ing an augmentation of endowments in districts where there were large local revenues available. These were the grounds on which grants had not been made to the two mentioned districts.

MR. OTWAY: Sir, it is unquestionably true that in China, lately, some occurrences have taken place that are much to be regretted, which have resulted in the wounding of several men in Her Majesty's service and in a large loss of life to the Chinese. But these proceeding, so far from being the result of our policy in China, have been, in consequence of action, taken in opposition to that policy. Our policy in China is to establish and maintain friendly relations with its Government and people and to extend the commercial interests of this country with the Chinese Empire. We maintain at Pekin a Legation for that purpose, and it is the duty of Her Ma

done to British subjects, to represent that damage to the Chinese Central Government and to obtain from it redress. Sir Rutherford Alcock has, on all occasions on which such damage has been made known to him, made the necessary

CHINA-HOSTILITY TO FOREIGNERS. representations to the Central Govern

QUESTION.

-

ment, and has obtained from it either redress or the immediate promise of COLONEL SYKES said, he wished to it. But if Her Majesty's officers — ask the Under Secretary of State for consular or others. take upon themForeign Affairs, with reference to the selves to use Her Majesty's forces to following extract from the "China Mail," obtain that redress which they conceive quoted by Mr. Horatio Nelson Lay, ex-to be due upon a question of commercial Superintendent of Maritime Customs law or other matters in dispute, such in China, in a letter to the London conduct will not be approved of by "Times," 2nd December 1868:

"The result of our present policy in China is that on every side we hear of hostility against foreigners, at Wuchang-Kiu-Kiang, Formosa, Chefoo, Chin-Kiang, and Yangchowa. From every part of China we hear complaints of the Chinese authorities resisting the clearest and most unquestionable claims."

Whether the Diplomatic and Consular Agents, who directed the solution of these cases, have reported officially or otherwise to the Foreign Office, and whether the Reports, if any, can be laid upon the Table. What redress was obtained for the attempted assassination of Mr. Hardie and Mr. Pickering at VOL. CXCV. [THIRD SERIES.]

the Government. Now, without referring to the various questions to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has drawn attention-for this is not the time, as we are about to lay all the Papers before the House, and it will then be in his power to make any comments he likes on the proceedings-without referring to these various matters in detail, I will say that although the proceedings to which he refers have been, as far as the naval and military operations were concerned, conducted with great skill and gallantry by the officers employed, they were not such as could possibly meet

U

with the approval of the Government, MR. MONSELL, in reply, said, he

looking to the instructions given specially to the consular officers in China; and in one case the consular officer at Formosa so far departed from the spirit of the instructions he received, that it has been thought right by the Government to remove him from the post he occupied. It may be satisfactory to my hon. and gallant Friend to know-notwithstanding the very lugubrious opinion he has expressed in his Questions that we have received a telegram from Sir Rutherford Alcock, conveying a very different impression. It runs thus

"March 30, 1869. At Yangchowa, Formosa, Swatow, entire sincerity and improved position. At all the ports accounts received of the restoration of order and peace. Lord Clarendon's instructions of the 13th of December have been

communicated to Prince Kung, and the consuls, and the admiral. The best understanding exists with everybody at Pekin. There is no more cause for anxiety on any point. Our relations have never been more satisfactory."

With regard to the last Question, I can only say that my hon. and gallant Friend appears to receive earlier information from China than we do. The Government have received no information of any such occurrence as that to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers. All the Papers on the subject shall be laid on the

table.

THE EMIGRATION COMMISSION.

QUESTION.

had to inform the hon. Gentleman that there were at present two Commissioners of Emigration, Mr. Murdoch and Mr. Walcott, an assistant-secretary, seven clerks, and twenty-three emigration officers in various ports of the United Kingdom. The salaries of the Commissioners and clerks amounted to somewhere about £8,000, of which £1,300 was paid out of the colonial funds. The salaries of the emigration officers and assistants amounted to £3,912, so that the total annual expenses were £11,595. £9,829 came out of the Parliamentary Vote for Emigration, and £1,766 out of funds supplied by the colonies to which emigrants were despatched. There was a fund arising from deposits of intending emigrants who had afterwards altered their intention. Its amount was £9,652 in Consols, besides £1,000 in Exchequer Bills. The duties at present discharged by the Commissioners were to carry out the provisions of the Passengers Act with regard to emigration from this country, to select and despatch certain bodies of emigrants to Victoria and Western Australia; to superintend the emigration from India and China, and also the return of emigrants to Asia from the different colonies, and to decide all questions regarding colonial Crown lands, leases, or grants. In 1868 the Commissioners received 20,000 letters, and the number received during the present year up to this time was 6,306. The emigration to the Australian colonies, excepting Victoria and Western Australia, was at present inconsiderable. The colonies of Queensland and New Zealand had independent emigration agents of their own, as also the colony of South Australia, but the superintendence of emigration to South Australia was in the hands of the Commissioners. They were at present engaged in sending out the

MR. HARDCASTLE said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, The present number of Her Majesty's Commissioners for Emigration, and their names, and also the number of clerks and assistants employed by the Commission; the amount of the salaries of such Commissioners and their clerks or assistants; the total annual expenses of the Commission, and to what purposes the expenses are devoted; out of what fund such expenses are paid, and discharged artizans from the dockyards. whether there is a fund consisting of It was under the consideration of Gomonies retained from deposits of intend- vernment whether the Commission should ing emigrants who have afterwards be continued. There was no doubt, from altered their intentions, and, if any, the what he had already stated, that the amount of it; what duties are at present duties had very much decreased, but the performed by the Commissioners; whe- difficulty with respect to the abolition of ther Colonial Emigration is not now the office was that, on account of the almost entirely managed by agents of large pensions that would have to be the Colonies, acting independently of the paid, there would be very little saving Commissioners; and, whether the Go- to the public, who would likewise lose vernment proposes to continue the Commission in its present form?

the advantage of the services of two excellent officers.