dealing with a branch of science different from that in which he had earned and gained his reputation. But this course had been pursued, not only at the Admiralty, but at the dockyards, for his right hon. Friend had said

"Instead of two co-ordinate authorities, instead of a Master Shipwright and Master Engineer, we shall throw them into one manager for all operations."

He thought this a very bad arrangement, for it by no means followed that an officer who was a good shipbuilder should be also a good engineer. He trusted that his right hon. Friend would re-consider his decisions on these points, and give Mr. Murray the office and the remuneration to which his abilities fairly entitled him. He would not detain the Committee by entering further into the matter, and, in conclusion, he need not assure his right hon. Friend that he made these remarks in no spirit of personal hostility, but because experience had led him to the conclusion that these innovations at the Admiralty did not tend to the advantage of the public service.

could be well managed with several captains, and it was to be hoped he would go on with the reforms he had begun, and would next year be able to reduce the Vote by a considerable sum further.

LORD HENRY LENNOX said, it was not his intention to make any lengthened observations, even if he were physically able to do so; but he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty a question with regard to the recent changes in the Controller's Department, not only because they affected those who had lost their position as civil servants, but because they affected the civil servants of the Crown employed in every public office. He entirely agreed with the remarks made by his right hon. Friend the late First Lord (Mr. Corry) with regard to the nature of the changes which had been made in the constitution and administration of the affairs of the Admiralty. Far be it from him to say that the new system should not have a fair trial in order that it might be seen how it would work; but during his tenure of Office he found out how much the public service had suffered from the constant interference of well-intentioned reformers introducing fresh systems. Changes had been made, and before there had been time to see whether they would conduce to economy or not, other changes had followed. He would be the last to say that this new scheme of piling the whole work on the heads of a few should not have a fair trial, and he trusted that the few would be able to bear the work put upon them. The principle of the changes which had been made appeared to be to consult the convenience of the Controller's department. Seven or eight clerks had been abolished, and those who remained had been placed in an exceptionally good position. No one had a higher opinion than himself of the merits and labours of the Chief Constructor, but it was a matter of fact that he benefited to the

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he would remind the Committee that the Vote was challenged last year, when it had been raised from £167,000 to £182,000. The Vote had, up to that time, been increasing from year to year, but cogent reasons for the increase were then demanded, and the right hon. Gentleman, now the First Lord of the Admiralty, said that the Office needed a revision. It was matter for congratulation that he had had the courage to make a revision of the whole Department on entering Office. It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Corry) to talk about arrangements made by Sir James Graham. He was, no doubt, a very clever man in his day, but he did not know then what we do now about these matters. The right hon. Gentleman, when he was in Office, used to say that he could not dispense with a single official, but the pre-extent of £200 a year by the abolition of sent First Lord had knocked off above £13,000 of salaries at a blow, and he (Mr. Alderman Lusk) believed the work would be more advantageously performed in consequence of the reduction. It was right that the First Lord should be at the head of the Office with undivided responsibility and command, without which the Admiralty could no more be expected to be well managed than a ship

the clerkships. Then a professional secretary was appointed at £500 a year, and two of those employed in the Constructive Department were to receive £100 a year extra for assisting him, while the Controller of the Navy had a private secretary and writers for his private and daily correspondence. He congratulated the First Lord upon finding himself in a position to reduce the

number of clerkships in the Controller's into the office of Sir Spencer Robinson. department, and gave him full credit That young gentleman, finding that his for the skill displayed in doing it, be- career had been cut short as far as the cause when he (Lord Henry Lennox) public service was concerned, sought an held the Office of Secretary to the Ad- appointment in a private company, and miralty this department signalized itself obtained testimonials from those under by its frequent, persevering, and earnest whom he had served to aid him. Among demands for increase of clerical labour. those testimonials was one from Sir Indeed, although he besought the Con- Spencer Robinson, who said he had troller, on the ground of economy, to do found him, during the two years he had with a smaller staff, he was repeatedly acted as his private secretary, active, inassured that if the applications for in- telligent, and strictly trustworthy, and crease were not granted the public ser- believed him to be a good public service must suffer. When he heard that vant. Mr. Reed said of him that he had so many established clerkships had been filled positions of great trust; the Chief reduced he could scarcely believe his Clerk in the Controller's office spoke of ears; and if the reductions had been him as a talented young man, and the wisely made, the fact showed how much late First Lord of the Admiralty added more difficult it was for a Tory Secre- his testimonial which was even stronger tary to bring about these changes than in its terms than those he had quoted. for a Liberal First Lord. He did not Nevertheless, that gentleman-Mr. Yorke object to the changes in themselves, if the First Lord 'could make them conscientiously, but he objected to the manner in which they had been made. When it was found necessary.to reduce the number of the public servants of the Crown in the Government offices,, the fair, honest, reasonable way was to give notice of the fact, so as to afford an opportunity to any who, from length of service or ill-health, might feel disposed to retire, to do so voluntarily; and retain in the service young men who had received an expensive education and passed an arduous examination in preparing themselves for their adopted career. In this case nothing of the kind was done; but one fine morning seven or eight young men, not selected from the junior list, were informed, as he was told, by a memorandum on a sheet of paper passed round the office, that their services were no longer required. Feeling that they had entered the service under a guarantee that they should remain in it until by misconduct or illhealth they forfeited their positions, they sent a memorial to the First Lord, ask-reality that Committee was not nomiing what they had done to be dismissed without notice or reason, and asking for a re-consideration of their case; and the First Lord courteously replied that their case had been carefully considered, and that the staff was being reduced with a due regard to public interests. He had watched the career of one of these young gentlemen, he knew him to be an energetic and painstaking young man, and was the means of introducing him

had been deprived of his appointment, not because he was a junior, certainly not because of want of ability. The First Lord of the Admiralty had stated there was no actual agreement between the Crown and the civil servants, except that embodied in the provisions of the Civil Service Superannuation Act. Now, although this was literally true, it would be an evil day for the Civil Service if it were strictly acted on. Mr. Yorke, after spending five years in the public service, had now to leave his post, having the liberal pension of £10 a year allotted to him; while other gentlemen similarly deprived of employment were entitled to nothing. This was not a matter which merely affected the Admiralty clerks; there was a strong feeling about it in every Department under Government. The right hon. Gentleman the present First Lord of the Admiralty had stated some time ago that the clerks who were dismissed would be placed in a redundant list, and that he had appointed a Committee to see that no injustice was done; but in

nated until long after the injustice he referred to had been done, and when these young men were in search of situations in private firms. Although the Committee had been sitting for two months past, it had made no Report, and had given no note of warning to those interested. Every month in which these young gentlemen were in doubt was a a loss to them. The right hon. Gentleman had said the Committee were in

structed to take into consideration per- ralty authorities as to the position which sonal applications, but no notice had the Controller held. In 1860 the Duke of been taken of those which had been sent Somerset, then First Lord of the Adin. Considering how important the sub-miralty, said before a Committee that ject was, he asked the right hon. Gentle- the Controller was responsible for everyman whether he would place upon the thing connected with the building and table any correspondence which had repairing of ships, and that nothing passed with reference to the dismissal could be done to increase his power and of these young men ? and, whether he responsibility. But in 1868 the Controller would grant a Return stating the age of himself was asked before Mr. Seely's Comthe clerks dismissed and the amount of mittee-"Has such a case ever happened pension they were entitled to on dis- that the Board recommends a ship should missal? be repaired, when you have recommended that it should not be repaired?" And his answer was-"Yes, every day." He was further asked—“And that relieves you from all responsibility?" His answer was-"Entirely." It was a great advantage that now, for the first time, the Controller was made really responsible and had a seat at the Board, and he believed that in the present Controller the country had a most admirable servant, who would prove himself worthy of the confidence reposed in him.

COLONEL SYKES said, the question just raised was one of dangerous importance; but surely the noble Lord could not seriously entertain the idea that a servant in a public office possessed a vested interest in his situation. With reference to the Estimates there was this year a phenomenon. The cost of the Admiralty Office last year was £182,000, and this year showed a reduction in that cost of £13,660, and this was the first instance he had ever met with of a lump reduction to a similar amount. The reason was plain: there was now, for the first time, a concentration of power and responsibility in one pair of hands. But he accepted this reduction only as an instalment. The central administration of the French Navy last year cost only £84,656, including the service for the colonies, and that small amount arose from the simple fact that the Minister of Marine was supreme, and had no deputy supremes at all. The total Estimate for the French Navy for 1870 is only £6,513,801 !

MR. CHILDERS said, before he replied to the remarks of his right hon. Friend the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Corry) he would answer specifically the questions put to him by his noble Friend the Member for Chichester (Lord Henry Lennox). He was glad to see his noble Friend again in that House able to take part in the debates; and with respect to the remarks of his right hon. Friend that there was one Member of the Board who would be very much overworked, it would at all events be admitted that there was one Member of the MR. LIDDELL said, his right hon former Board who had been very much Friend (Mr. Corry), in criticizing the al-overworked, and who had thoroughly teration of the constitution of the Board earned his holiday. His noble Friend of Admiralty, seemed to think that the had asked some questions about the outside public had always been satisfied reduction of clerks which had been with the way in which the business of made in the Controller's office in the the Admiralty was conducted. But the early part of this year, and prefaced fact was that the public had not been those questions by some remarks in which satisfied. They had felt that they did he could not quite follow him. not get their money's worth for their noble Friend had referred in the first place money. There had been a want of con- to the professional Secretary to the Concentration and of control in the Admi-structor of the Navy. But on that point ralty, and the result was a want of all he had to say was that he had put economy in the great manufacturing de- honestly in these Estimates what used to partments, and a bad system of accounts. exist in the Estimates under another Valuable reforms had now been intro- form. Formerly one of the Assistant duced, and among them he was glad to Master Shipwrights had been employed see the elevation of the Controller of the at the Admiralty, although charged in Navy to a seat at the Board. Hitherto the Dockyard Vote. He had simply some amount of confusion had appeared been placed in Vote 3 instead of in Vote to exist in the minds of the highest Admi- 6, and that made it appear that there VOL. CXCIV. [THIRD SERIES.]

D

His

was an additional officer. His noble , spared if the proposed reduction was Friend had also alluded to the employ- carried out. When that inquiry was ment of writers in the Controller's de- completed the result was submitted to partment. All he could say, in reply, him and he approved the reduction prowas that the number of persons em- posed. And what did he then do? In ployed in that way was much less the first place, he gave notice to all the than it had been last year. On the gentlemen affected that a reduction was question of the reduction of clerks he impending, and that after a certain time must remind his noble Friend that they would have to leave their offices. he had been away in the early part That notice was, in the first place, not of the Session when the most ac- one of an official character, but was curate explanations had been given at a prior intimation personally conveyed two different times as to what had hap-to them that an official notice of the pened. He gave the information, in the reduction was about to go forth. The first place, in a very long answer in reply next step he took was to provide to a Question put by his hon. and gallant that those gentlemen should be allowed Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Sir to retain their offices to the end of the James Elphinstone), and he repeated that quarter, or, in other words, from the information almost word for word with beginning of January to the end of last some additional matter when he moved month. And the third step was to the Estimates; but as his noble Friend had appoint a Committee who were innow put the Question he was quite ready structed to do precisely the thing which to repeat it again. His noble Friend had his noble Friend thought proper to be said that a certain number of clerks had done in such circumstances-namely, to been reduced in the Controller's office in ascertain what officers would be willing the early part of the year, and expressed to retire; so that, as far as possible, his surprise that any reduction could the junior officers in particular de have been made, because when in Office partments, who, in consequence of the he had been always receiving applica- large reduction, might otherwise be tions for an increase in the number of obliged to retire, might not have to do clerks.

But the answer was perfectly so, but that the senior officers in different simple. Under the former system there departments might so retire. In the was a mass of correspondence between particular department to which his noble the Controller's and the Secretary's Friend had referred it would be imposoffices, but the union of these depart- sible to carry out that plan because many ments had altered all this. Much of of the seniors were quite as unwilling that work had now been dispensed with, to leave as their juniors; but, by dealing and the reduction. had been further with the Admiralty as a whole it might aided by the substitution of copying ma- be quite possible to retain the juniors chines for clerks in such work as could other branches of the service. That, be so performed. He was quite satisfied however, was not a simple operation; it that his noble Friend had done his best would take time; it would require to be to promote economy in the position in dealt with very carefully, and had been which he was placed ; but he must say so dealt with in the last few months. at the same time that, by means of a He was now in a position to say that in better system, they were now able to throughout the different offices applicado with less hands. His noble Friend tions had been received and were still had also complained of the manner in being received from many

senior officers which the reduction had been effected, who were prepared to retire. Some deand his remarks would apply not to one lay had occurred in consequence of its office but to all offices. The Control- being necessary to be very precise as to ler's office happened to be the first the terms of superannuation on which which had to be dealt with, because the gentlemen in question would retire, the change in his position was one of but none he believed that would not the cardinal features of the new ar- enable the authorities to complete the rangements. Careful inquiry, however, reduction before the end of the present was made both as to the amount of reduc- month instead of the last month. tion which could be effected, and also as must say, however, that the kindest and to those gentlemen who, considering the best thing that could be done was to work they had being doing, could be best give the young men some previous notice

He

and which everybody admitted to be be perfectly sound. What he was speaking of was, not the transaction of the executive business of the Admiralty, but the adoption of responsibility among its principal officers; and he would say most distinctly that, so far as his judg

of what was intended, and not to leave them in doubt; to let them know that a reduction would be made, that their services might have to be dispensed with, and then to give them an opportunity, which had been given, of being retained in the public service if their seniors were found willing to retire in other department and experience went, the adoption ments. As to the particular clerk (Mr. Yorke) to whom his noble Friend had referred, he was an officer against whom he had nothing whatever to say; but so far from any injustice having been done him, every assistance was given him to obtain fresh employment, and his noble Friend had read the testimonials which he had received. He was sorry that his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) was not present; but he had been told that the inquiries which had been made in the different offices had been entirely successful, and that very few, if any, of the junior clerks would be removed altogether from the public service. His noble Friend had asked a distinct question, whether he was prepared to lay on the table the correspondence which had taken place on the subject? In the present incomplete state of the business nothing could be more unwise than to lay the Papers on the table; but as soon as the reductions were actually effected he would not have the least objection to produce the correspondence. So much for the special case of reduction. He came now to the remarks of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Corry) with respect to the changes which had been made in the transaction of business by substituting for the ordinary action of the Board what had been described as action similar to that in other Departments. Now, the words he was using on the occasion to which his right hon. Friend had referred were used especially with reference to the responsibilities of those who were the principal members of the Departments, and not with respect to what his right hon. Friend had very properly said was the efficient transaction of the executive business of the Admiralty. He should be the last to interfere with that, because it was perfectly well known that the transaction of that business was very efficient, and he had made no alteration in this respect. That part of the Admiralty business was most promptly transacted under a system which had been matured for many years past,

of responsibility among the distinct heads of the great departments, instead of that responsibility being frittered away by the action of the Board, was a decided improvement. His right hon. Friend had said that the change which had been made was opposed to the evidence of Sir James Graham. He could only say he had read the evidence of Sir James Graham before the Committee over which his right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Henley) had presided, and the view he took of the responsibility of the First Lord was very different from that of his right hon. Friend opposite. His right hon. Friend asked why the Controller should be a member of the Board instead of a subordinate, but he thought he had previously given a good reason for thatnamely, that it secured unity of action, and brought business into one hand which was formerly distributed among three or four persons. Formerly, the First Sea Lord, the Store Lord, and the Civil Lord had each a share of the business of the dockyards, and the Controller was their subordinate, but now the Controller was responsible for the entire administration of the dockyards, and that was not only a decided improvement in itself, but he was able to say was in accordance with the opinion of high authority. The business of each department of the Admiralty had been put into a plain shape, and it was admitted on all hands that it was transacted much more satisfactorily. The case had been put of two of his advisers giving contrary opinions; but what was the object of having a responsible head of a Department unless, when two of his advisers took different views, he heard the views of both and then decided what was right? It was surely much better that that should be decided by the responsible head of the Department than by an irresponsible Board. Then his right hon. Friend took up a Paper that was laid on the table the other day, and said that the First Naval Lord had too much work; that he had fifteen subjects to