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Dover. At Weymouth we find that soon find a large number of artizans Captain Smith, who so ably conducted amongst your recruits, and the general the works there, states that the employ- class of men very much raised. In this ment of skilled military labour resulted view I am borne out by the Recruiting in a saving of nearly 30 per cent- Commission, and also by the manner

“ Memorandum of the comparative Cost of in which the Royal Engineers are reSapper and Civil Labour.-1. The saving effected cruited. I find that Mr. Buckley stated by employing military labour (Royal Engineers this view very concisely before Sir George and Line) instead of contract, is 28:41 per cent. Lewis's Committee. He said — 2. Every soldier, during each day that he is actually employed on the works, clears off (by doing the work cheaper than a civilian) his whole cost return to his home an independent member of the

“ The knowledge of the fact that a soldier can to the country, including regimental and working community instead of being an outcast almost of pay, bounty, clothing, barracks, hospital, &c., in society, would have such a tendency to improve fact everything except 31d. per diem. 3. The the recruiting for the army that parents would amount of work done by an average soldier (taking no longer hesitate to allow their sons to enter its day-work and piece-work, Royal Engineers and ranks. Young men of respectability, as tradesLine, together) is .71 of that done by a civilian.

men, would no longer hesitate to become soldiers, (Signed) PERCY SMITH,

if they knew they could still continue to practise Captain Commanding Royal Engineers.

their trades ; a better description of recruit is Weymouth, June, 1866."

obtained for the Royal Engineers from the knowThe officer who carried out the works ledge that a certain amount of working pay is at Dover is, I am happy to say, a Mem- certain.” ber of this House (Captain Beaumont), I shall no doubt be told that in every and I trust he will give us his opinion regiment you have already established as to the success of the experiments, and an artificer's corps in the Pioneers of to the necessity of organization. In the regiment, and, to a certain extent, many of these experiments on fortifica- this is true according to regulations. tions, the soldier of the Line has acted But, Sir, until last year nearly every as a labourer, the Sappers doing all the regiment selected their body of Pioneers, skilled labour ; but there is nothing not on account of their being artificers, whatever to prevent every Line regi- but because of their size and capability ment having a large body of skilled of growing handsome, luxuriant beards, artificers receiving full working pay on and to look well at the head of regithe same plan as carried out in the Royal ments, with their magnificent polished Engineers; and if a complete organiza- tools, which never showed signs of laborition is adopted, you will have every ous use. Their duties have hardly ever regiment with its corps of artificers, like been that of artificers, unless, indeed, it ships in the navy carrying their dock- may be urged that they have been emyard with them. I have endeavoured ployed in performing small jobs of little to obtain some reliable statistics as to real utility. Now, Sir, I apprehend that what percentage of the troops at pro- nearly every commanding officer would sent employed have served in trades, object to the Pioneers being largely but without success, as it appears a augmented, not only because it would large number of recruits will not admit interfere with the interior economy of the fact of their having been employed the regiment, but also because it would in trades, and frequently men declare make an invidious distinction in the themselves to be tradesmen who have ranks which ought to be avoided. I am no qualification. In the Return moved aware that in this view I am not borne for by the hon. Member for Bucking- out by Colonel Jeffreys, who has had so ham (Sir Harry Verney), it would much experience in the matter ; but I seem that the percentage of men who think he is an exception to the rule. have had some knowledge in useful The plan, therefore, which seems to me trades in Line regiments amounted to most feasible and open to the least ob8 per cent; but I am inclined to believe jection would be to abolish the Pioneers that this is over the mark. Supposing altogether, and in lieu thereof to enter we were to state the case in its worst a certain number of artificers in each aspect, and to presume that there were company, obtaining the same pay as actually no artificers in the Infantry their companions, but whose privilege whatever, I am convinced even then, and advantage it would be, to be emthat if inducements were held out of ployed, as a rule, four or five days a fair working pay being given, you would week on working pay, under the Royal


Engineer of the district, on repairs and that testimony in the person of Colonel new works. Now, Sir, in making these Clarke, Director of Works at the Adsuggestions, I wish the House to under- miralty. I believe, Sir, that Colonel stand that I do so with the utmost Clarke, who is an officer of the highest diffidence, being well aware that there ability in the Royal Engineers, is one are considerable difficulties to be over- of the best authorities on this subject, come; but after discussing the subject | having not only been a warm advocate with officers in the army of consider- of its adoption during a long number able experience, it seems generally to of years, but also having had practical be thought that this would give rise to experience. I find, Sir, that as long the least interference with the internal ago as 1847 he superintended the coneconomy and discipline. I believe that struction of barracks in New Zealand, if you were to lay down the rule that which he appears to have carried out seven men in each company were to with great success by soldier labour. On. be artificers, you would soon obtain being appointed to the Admiralty a few them, and that these seven would form years back, he strongly advised that the the nucleus of a still larger number Marines should repair their own baranxious to be employed. It will no racks; but he found every colonel comdoubt be asked—How is this complete mandant strongly opposed, and the organization to be carried out? How Board of Admiralty difficult to move. are you to obtain the requisite super- Not, however, the least despairing, he intendence? Who is to purchase ma- set to work to see what could be done, terials ? Where is your builder's yard, and, with the cordial assistance of Sir with its tools, its ladders, and appli- Sidney Dacres, the scheme has, to a ances? Sir, my answer is simply this, certain extent, been successfully carried that you have already a complete system out, though there is yet very much to of superintendence to carry out a general be done. I find that nearly all the plan for the employment of military barracks are now repaired by the Malabour, without going to the expense of rines at a saving of about 30 per cent, a single shilling. The private soldier and that the commanding officers testify has always been accustomed to look to that discipline has not been interfered the Royal Engineers and the Sappers with. In the Return which has not

. as their legitimate superintendents and yet been printed, I find that at Chatforemen when employed in time of war ham a saving of 23 per cent has been on works and fortifications, and it is this effected. Colonel Lambrick states valuable force that you must utilize in “I have found the artificers and labourers time of peace to the fullest possible ex- employed, efficient soldiers in the Brigade and tent. It would be the greatest mistake, Battalion. Their conduct is good. I rarely in my humble opinion, to set up a re

have any complaints. They appear to like the

work, and being so employed I am sure makes gimental organization distinct from the them' better soldiers and therefore more valuable Royal Engineers. The plan, to be pro- to the State.” perly carried out in its integrity, must At Woolwich a saving of 44 per cent be local, and not regimental, and in this I think I shall be borne out by most states - Marine labour has worked most

has been made, and Colonel Luther gentlemen connected with the you try to keep the organization in a is 40 per cent, and Colonel Foote says

satisfactorily.” At Plymouth the saving regiment, you will find not only that it will interfere very much with the in- “ I am of opinion that the ordinary repairs of ternal economy, but accounts would be barracks has been very satisfactory, the work

having been well done, at less cost than would multiplied, endless confusion would pre- have attended the employment of contractors' vail, and that the upshot of it would be men, and with less delay.” that the system, as applied on a large at Portsmouth the saving is about 22 scale, would infallibly break down. If anything further was required to cor- per cent, and Colonel Schomberg, who

is supposed to be very strict in regard roborate this statement which I have

to drill, saysendeavoured to lay before the House, it would perhaps be the testimony of

• Irrespective of the actual gain in money, I any man who practically tried to carry vantages

. It offers a reward to deserving men,

consider that such employment has other adout a system on a large scale. Fortu- and encourages good conduct. These men, whilst nately, I am able to say that I have serving, keep up a knowledge of their former

army. If

trades. On actual service they would be most | age of seven men to each company could valuable, and could assist in engineer operations. be employed every day in the repair of Discipline is improved—drill and appearance on barracks. It seems to me, Sir, that this parade not injured in any way whatever.”

also leads to another question-namely, Now, Sir, I am well aware that ob- whether the duties in garrison towns jections have been raised against adopt- could not be considerably cut down? ing soldier labour on any large scale, Then I am told that you would be put but I have been unable to find a single to a great expense for workshops and one which cannot easily be answered, tools. But this need not be the case, although I do not wish for a moment as the Royal Engineers have the tools. to deny that there are difficulties in the In almost every barrack in the kingdom details which require careful considera- a portion of the building is at present tion. It is said that it would be im- reserved by the Royal Engineer Departpossible to obtain a sufficient supply of ment as store and workshops for the artificers; but I think the recruiting for civilian labour employed under the conthe Royal Engineers shows unmistak- tractor, and it is only necessary to alter ably that this would not be the case the appropriation of these places to obprovided you gave a liberal amount of tain the necessary accommodation. Then working pay; and if, after making the I have been told that it would benefit attempt, you failed, it would then be the soldier, but not the State. I think, perfectly easy to teach a certain num- Sir, that the only answer to this is that ber of boys different trades in order to the time has gone by when it was start the system. Then I am told that thought that the greater the blackthe men would buy their discharge guard so much better the soldier;" and directly they had made sufficient money, that we now feel that the more you raise in the same manner that several com- the tone of the soldier, so much more panies of Sappers out in the colonies efficient does your army become. These, have preferred civil life and left the I believe, Sir, are the chief objections, Service. Well, Sir, I do not think much and I now come to what would be the harm would arise if this were to be the financial result if an organized system case, as I am confident the vacuum were adopted. I find that the number would still be filled in, and if the pur- of civilians employed daily on the rechase-money were increased for artificers, pair of barracks on the Home Station no loss could be sustained. I am quite throughout the year, is about 1,200, and clear, however, that the working pay that if soldiers were employed you would must be put entirely on a new footing, require about 2,000 to work four days and must rise and fall in proportion a week. If my proposition were carto civil pay. It is absurd to think that ried out of having seven men in each under the existing regulations an En- company, you would have on the Home gineer in the colonies, where the wage Station a splendid body of no less than for artificers is naturally high, should 5,000 skilled artificers. If, then, 2,000 be receiving the same working pay as were taken for the repair of barracks, if he were on the Home Station. It is you might employ 3,000 on the other said by some officers that it would affect works suggested by the Committee. I drill; but I think all the experience we believe that by this means the expendihave gained shows that this is not the ture on barracks, amounting to £133,000, case. I am informed that Colonel Pasley, might be reduced by £40,000; and that who erected some stone barracks at Mel- the remaining sum of £357,662, which bourne, used to fall his men in one after- is now spent under Vote 14 for the Home noon in the week to what was termed Station, might be reduced by £100,000. “swaggering drill," and it was found In France, the employment of soldier to answer admirably, and the men were | labour is carried out to a very large exalways well set up. Then I am told tent, and I am informed that all the that in garrison towns it would be im- gun-carriages are made by the Artillery. possible to carry it out. Now, Sir, an I do not see what is to prevent the same Officer at Dublin has been kind enough course being adopted in this country. I to send me the garrison statistics, and will not now take up the time of the I find that even there-which is sup- House any longer, which I fear I have posed to be the most heavily garrisoned already trespassed upon at far too great town on the Home Station à percent- a length. I will therefore only add that

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I believe the organization of the armies ( press upon his right hon. Friend the of all foreign nations has, during the present Secretary of State for War that last few years, advanced by rapid strides: he should not simply say that he acceded it must not be that England should be to the proposition, but that he should, left behind in the race. Sooner or later by a strong exercise of his own will, the strife must come, and the result give effect to it, because unless he did must depend on the general aptitude of this it would not be carried out by comour armies for the emergencies of war; manding officers. He was certain that the clinging to a system of machine- if some system of this sort were carried made troops not in harmony with the out, the condition of the army and the age will not avail us in time of need. character of the soldier, in all the higher Let us, then, in this period of peace, senses of the term, would be improved. by timely and judicious and systematic reforms, lead our men to a better gene

Amendment proposed, ral acquaintance with the structural To leave out from the word “That" to the duties of the Service; and by so doing, end of the Question, in order to add the words I am confident we shall effect vast eco

“in the opinion of this House, an authorized ornomy in our expenditure, and propor- system of Military labour to Military works' to

ganization should be adopted for extending the tionally increase the efficiency of our all stations of Her Majesty's Army," (Mr. armies. The hon. Member then moved Hanbury-Tracy,) the Amendment.

- instead thereof. MR. HEADLAM, in seconding the Motion, said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Question proposed, “That the words Hanbury Tracy) had done exceedingly proposed to be left out stand part of the good service by bringing the subject Question." before the House. He Mr. Headlam)


GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, had long entertained a strong opinion he rose to prevent the House assuming that soldiers might be employed, very that the difficulty in the way of the embeneficially to themselves and the pub- ployment of soldiers arose exclusively lic, upon such works as had been in- from the opposition of officers. Another dicated. He did not wish to enter into difficulty to be got over was the finanthe economical part of the question; cial one. When Engineer officers were his hon. Friend had shown that a great not available to superintend the labour saving would be effected by the em- of soldiers, it was in many instances ployment of soldiers. But his own ex- cheaper to employ contract labour. perience as Judge Advocate General en- MR. CARDWELL said, he need not abled him to say that many of the crimes assure the House of the entire sympathy which soldiers were guilty of arose in with which he regarded the Motion of reality from lack of employment. He his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury Tracy).

. believed that if they had the oppor- There could be no doubt that everytunity of earning an honest penny, they thing which diminished idleness among would be better soldiers and better men, soldiers was a boon, seeing that in the and would avoid many heavy punish- army, as out of it, idleness was a fruitments which were now inflicted. He ful source of evil. Anything which inbelieved the House was scarcely aware creased the pay of the soldier, and enof the long terms of punishment to which abled him to add to his comfort, and soldiers were subjected for various crimes that of his family, if he had one, and and offences against military discipline; anything which broke down the barrier and if they could be saved from the between military and civil life, and gave commission of these crimes, that in it- the soldier participation and interest in self, independently of any economical the pursuits of those by whom he was advantage, would be a great and ma- surrounded, must have a beneficial effect. terial benefit. This subject had been Another signal benefit which might be brought forward previously—at least in expected to follow from the introduction the other House and there had always of soldier labour was the enlistment of been a perfect concession of the truth of artificers who, entering at an early the arguments; but somehow the mili- period of life, might look forward to tary authorities had always neglected returning to civil life, and resuming the to carry their professed opinions into employment to which they had been acpractice. He therefore wished to im- customed, particularly if the term of service were shortened, as he hoped it the effect on the men's characters was would be. All these advantages re- most excellent. The money earned was commended the Motion to the favour of mostly spent on their families, where the House, and he should be happy they had families, and some had accuto promote any organization which would mulated considerable sums in the savattain the desired result; but he would ings bank. He had the pleasure of caution his hon. Friend not to forget telling his hon. Friend, that in the recent that in the army you must depend on barrack regulations, arrangements had commanding officers, as it was through been made for the barrack repairs to be them the organization must be carried executed, as far as possible, by the men into effect. When men were separated themselves, under the direction of the from the army and given work to do, it Royal Engineers. In communicating was the commanding officer who was the information contained in the Reresponsible for maintaining discipline turns to the Commander-in-Chief, he and preventing undue pressure being had expressed his wish that the attenput on the other men who were engaged tion of commanding officers should be in ordinary regimental duties. It might drawn by a circular to the good resultmaterially impair discipline and do se- ing from the system, and that regiments rious injury to the army if the com- might be moved as little as possible in manding officers were in any way ig- cases where they had been tolerably nored in this matter. When large sav- successful in obtaining useful work on ings were spoken of to be effected by their station. He therefore hoped his this mode of industry, it must be re- hon. Friend would be satisfied that the membered that superintendence had to military authorities were alive to the be provided, and he did not think that importance of the subject, and fully in the statistics quoted anything was desirous of extending the system as far reckoned for this superintendence. They as practicable. could only obtain superintendence when

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. they had Engineer officers at their command. Then, again, much must depend

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker upon the number of men in a regiment do now leave the Chair," put, and who were trained for the particular ser- agreed to. vice to which it was desired to put them, and upon their aptitude for it. Of SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. course, if a contractor were doing any SUPPLY-considered in Committee. given work it would be for him to say what labour should be employed. He

(In the Committee.) had presented a Return to the House,

(1.) £160,800, Clothing Establishfrom which hon. Members would find ments, Services, and Supplies. that there had been no indisposition

(2.) £512,900, Barrack Establishlately to prosecute this system. At ments, Services, and Supplies. Portsmouth, the average numbers of

(3.) £43,800, Divine Service. men employed were civilians, 67; (4.) £2,000, Martial Law. soldiers, 29; at Woolwich --- civilians, SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, 35; soldiers, 108; at the Curragh Camp he thought it was high time that the --civilians, 24; soldiers, 53. The Con- attention of the Committee should be troller had received a letter from Colo- drawn to the degrading practice of brandnel Meredith reporting the results of the ing deserters with the letter “D." He system as tried at Parkhurst. The should like to ask the Secretary of State Colonel stated that the men having been for War, whether it was not contrary to selected and classified in trades, they the Articles of War, which specified the 'were sent to the shops, and received place where a man should be branded, to 18. 3d. a day if they worked as artificers, mark him more than once? If soldiers and 9d. if as labourers. In some cases were subjected to the disgraceful punishthe pay was increased. The hours of ment, how could it be expected that relabour were eight hours in winter and spectable men would enlist?

Men deten in summer, and the men were paid serting from the police were not branded; for overtime. The work was very popu- and admission to the force was at a prelar among the men, and though it had mium. It was held to be disgraceful been only carried on for a short time, among the men of the police force to be

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