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Dover. At Weymouth we find that soon find a large number of artizans Captain Smith, who so ably conducted amongst your recruits, and the general the works there, states that the employ- class of men very much raised. In this ment of skilled military labour resulted view I am borne out by the Recruiting

in a saving of nearly 30 per cent

"Memorandum of the comparative Cost of Sapper and Civil Labour.-1. The saving effected by employing military labour (Royal Engineers and Line) instead of contract, is 28-41 per cent. 2. Every soldier, during each day that he is actually employed on the works, clears off (by doing the work cheaper than a civilian) his whole cost to the country, including regimental and working pay, bounty, clothing, barracks, hospital, &c., in fact everything except 31d. per diem. 3. The amount of work done by an average soldier (taking day-work and piece-work, Royal Engineers and Line, together) is 71 of that done by a civilian. (Signed) PERCY SMITH, Captain Commanding Royal Engineers.

Weymouth, June, 1866."

Commission, and also by the manner in which the Royal Engineers are recruited. I find that Mr. Buckley stated this view very concisely before Sir George Lewis's Committee. He said

"The knowledge of the fact that a soldier can return to his home an independent member of the community instead of being an outcast almost of society, would have such a tendency to improve the recruiting for the army that parents would no longer hesitate to allow their sons to enter its ranks. Young men of respectability, as tradesmen, would no longer hesitate to become soldiers, if they knew they could still continue to practise their trades; a better description of recruit is obtained for the Royal Engineers from the knowledge that a certain amount of working pay is certain."

The officer who carried out the works at Dover is, I am happy to say, a Member of this House (Captain Beaumont), I shall no doubt be told that in every and I trust he will give us his opinion regiment you have already established as to the success of the experiments, and an artificer's corps in the Pioneers of to the necessity of organization. In the regiment, and, to a certain extent, many of these experiments on fortifica- this is true according to regulations. tions, the soldier of the Line has acted But, Sir, until last year nearly every as a labourer, the Sappers doing all the regiment selected their body of Pioneers, skilled labour; but there is nothing not on account of their being artificers, whatever to prevent every Line regi- but because of their size and capability ment having a large body of skilled of growing handsome, luxuriant beards, artificers receiving full working pay on the same plan as carried out in the Royal Engineers; and if a complete organization is adopted, you will have every regiment with its corps of artificers, like ships in the navy carrying their dockyard with them. I have endeavoured to obtain some reliable statistics as to what percentage of the troops at present employed have served in trades, but without success, as it appears a large number of recruits will not admit the fact of their having been employed in trades, and frequently men declare themselves to be tradesmen who have no qualification. In the Return moved for by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney), it would seem that the percentage of men who have had some knowledge in useful trades in Line regiments amounted to 8 per cent; but I am inclined to believe that this is over the mark. Supposing we were to state the case in its worst aspect, and to presume that there were actually no artificers in the Infantry their companions, but whose privilege whatever, I am convinced even then, and advantage it would be, to be emthat if inducements were held out of ployed, as a rule, four or five days a fair working pay being given, you would week on working pay, under the Royal

and to look well at the head of regiments, with their magnificent polished tools, which never showed signs of laborious use. Their duties have hardly ever been that of artificers, unless, indeed, it may be urged that they have been employed in performing small jobs of little real utility. Now, Sir, I apprehend that nearly every commanding officer would object to the Pioneers being largely augmented, not only because it would interfere with the interior economy of the regiment, but also because it would make an invidious distinction in the ranks which ought to be avoided. I am aware that in this view I am not borne out by Colonel Jeffreys, who has had so much experience in the matter; but I think he is an exception to the rule. The plan, therefore, which seems to me most feasible and open to the least objection would be to abolish the Pioneers altogether, and in lieu thereof to enter a certain number of artificers in each company, obtaining the same pay as

Engineer of the district, on repairs and that testimony in the person of Colonel new works. Now, Sir, in making these Clarke, Director of Works at the Adsuggestions, I wish the House to under-miralty. I believe, Sir, that Colonel stand that I do so with the utmost Clarke, who is an officer of the highest diffidence, being well aware that there ability in the Royal Engineers, is one are considerable difficulties to be over- of the best authorities on this subject, come; but after discussing the subject having not only been a warm advocate with officers in the army of consider- of its adoption during a long number able experience, it seems generally to of years, but also having had practical be thought that this would give rise to experience. I find, Sir, that as long the least interference with the internal ago as 1847 he superintended the coneconomy and discipline. I believe that struction of barracks in New Zealand, if you were to lay down the rule that which he appears to have carried out seven men in each company were to with great success by soldier labour. On. be artificers, you would soon obtain being appointed to the Admiralty a few them, and that these seven would form years back, he strongly advised that the the nucleus of a still larger number Marines should repair their own baranxious to be employed. It will no racks; but he found every colonel comdoubt be asked-How is this complete mandant strongly opposed, and the organization to be carried out? How Board of Admiralty difficult to move. are you to obtain the requisite super- Not, however, the least despairing, he intendence? Who is to purchase ma- set to work to see what could be done, terials? Where is your builder's yard, and, with the cordial assistance of Sir with its tools, its ladders, and appli- Sidney Dacres, the scheme has, to a ances? Sir, my answer is simply this, certain extent, been successfully carried that you have already a complete system out, though there is yet very much to of superintendence to carry out a general be done. I find that nearly all the plan for the employment of military barracks are now repaired by the Malabour, without going to the expense of rines at a saving of about 30 per cent, a single shilling. The private soldier and that the commanding officers testify has always been accustomed to look to that discipline has not been interfered the Royal Engineers and the Sappers with. as their legitimate superintendents and foremen when employed in time of war on works and fortifications, and it is this valuable force that you must utilize in time of peace to the fullest possible extent. It would be the greatest mistake, in my humble opinion, to set up a regimental organization distinct from the Royal Engineers. The plan, to be properly carried out in its integrity, must be local, and not regimental, and in this I think I shall be borne out by most gentlemen connected with the army. If you try to keep the organization in a regiment, you will find not only that it will interfere very much with the internal economy, but accounts would be multiplied, endless confusion would prevail, and that the upshot of it would be that the system, as applied on a large scale, would infallibly break down. If anything further was required to corroborate this statement which I have endeavoured to lay before the House, it would perhaps be the testimony of any man who practically tried to carry out a system on a large scale. Fortunately, I am able to say that I have

In the Return which has not yet been printed, I find that at Chatham a saving of 23 per cent has been effected. Colonel Lambrick states

"I have found the artificers and labourers

employed, efficient soldiers in the Brigade and Battalion. Their conduct is good. I rarely have any complaints. They appear to like the work, and being so employed I am sure makes

them better soldiers and therefore more valuable to the State."

At Woolwich a saving of 44 per cent has been made, and Colonel Luther states "Marine labour has worked most is 40 per cent, and Colonel Foote says—satisfactorily." At Plymouth the saving

"I am of opinion that the ordinary repairs of barracks has been very satisfactory, the work have attended the employment of contractors' having been well done, at less cost than would men, and with less delay."

At Portsmouth the saving is about 22 is supposed to be very strict in regard per cent, and Colonel Schomberg, who to drill, says

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'Irrespective of the actual gain in money, I vantages. It offers a reward to deserving men, consider that such employment has other adand encourages good conduct. These men, whilst serving, keep up a knowledge of their former

trades. On actual service they would be most valuable, and could assist in engineer operations. Discipline is improved-drill and appearance on parade not injured in any way whatever."

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Now, Sir, I am well aware that objections have been raised against adopting soldier labour on any large scale, but I have been unable to find a single one which cannot easily be answered, although I do not wish for a moment to deny that there are difficulties in the details which require careful consideration. It is said that it would be impossible to obtain a sufficient supply of artificers; but I think the recruiting for the Royal Engineers shows unmistakably that this would not be the case provided you gave liberal amount of working pay; and if, after making the attempt, you failed, it would then be perfectly easy to teach a certain number of boys different trades in order to start the system. Then I am told that the men would buy their discharge directly they had made sufficient money, in the same manner that several companies of Sappers out in the colonies have preferred civil life and left the Service. Well, Sir, I do not think much harm would arise if this were to be the case, as I am confident the vacuum would still be filled in, and if the purchase-money were increased for artificers, no loss could be sustained. I am quite clear, however, that the working pay must be put entirely on a new footing, and must rise and fall in proportion to civil pay. It is absurd to think that under the existing regulations an Engineer in the colonies, where the wage for artificers is naturally high, should be receiving the same working pay as if he were on the Home Station. It is said by some officers that it would affect drill; but I think all the experience we have gained shows that this is not the case. I am informed that Colonel Pasley, who erected some stone barracks at Mel

age of seven men to each company could be employed every day in the repair of barracks. It seems to me, Sir, that this also leads to another question-namely, whether the duties in garrison towns could not be considerably cut down? Then I am told that you would be put to a great expense for workshops and tools. But this need not be the case, as the Royal Engineers have the tools. In almost every barrack in the kingdom a portion of the building is at present reserved by the Royal Engineer Department as store and workshops for the civilian labour employed under the contractor, and it is only necessary to alter the appropriation of these places to obtain the necessary accommodation. Then I have been told that it would benefit the soldier, but not the State. I think, Sir, that the only answer to this is that the time has gone by when it was thought "that the greater the blackguard so much better the soldier;" and that we now feel that the more you raise the tone of the soldier, so much more efficient does your army become. These, I believe, Sir, are the chief objections, and I now come to what would be the financial result if an organized system were adopted. I find that the number of civilians employed daily on the repair of barracks on the Home Station throughout the year, is about 1,200, and that if soldiers were employed you would require about 2,000 to work four days a week. If my proposition were carried out of having seven men in each company, you would have on the Home Station a splendid body of no less than 5,000 skilled artificers. If, then, 2,000 were taken for the repair of barracks, you might employ 3,000 on the other works suggested by the Committee. I believe that by this means the expenditure on barracks, amounting to £133,000, might be reduced by £40,000; and that the remaining sum of £357,662, which

bourne, used to fall his men in one after- is now spent under Vote 14 for the Home noon in the week to what was termed Station, might be reduced by £100,000. "swaggering drill," and it was found In France, the employment of soldier to answer admirably, and the men were labour is carried out to a very large exalways well set up. Then I am told tent, and I am informed that all the that in garrison towns it would be im-gun-carriages are made by the Artillery. possible to carry it out. Now, Sir, an I do not see what is to prevent the same

officer at Dublin has been kind enough to send me the garrison statistics, and I find that even there which is supposed to be the most heavily garrisoned town on the Home Station - a percent

course being adopted in this country. I will not now take up the time of the House any longer, which I fear I have already trespassed upon at far too great a length. I will therefore only add that

he should not simply say that he acceded to the proposition, but that he should, by a strong exercise of his own will, give effect to it, because unless he did this it would not be carried out by commanding officers. He was certain that if some system of this sort were carried out, the condition of the army and the character of the soldier, in all the higher senses of the term, would be improved.

I believe the organization of the armies | press upon his right hon. Friend the of all foreign nations has, during the present Secretary of State for War that last few years, advanced by rapid strides: it must not be that England should be left behind in the race. Sooner or later the strife must come, and the result must depend on the general aptitude of our armies for the emergencies of war; the clinging to a system of machinemade troops not in harmony with the age will not avail us in time of need. Let us, then, in this period of peace, by timely and judicious and systematic reforms, lead our men to a better general acquaintance with the structural To leave out from the word "That" to the duties of the Service; and by so doing, end of the Question, in order to add the words I am confident we shall effect vast eco-"in the opinion of this House, an authorized ornomy in our expenditure, and propor- system of Military labour to Military works' to ganization should be adopted for extending the tionally increase the efficiency of our all stations of Her Majesty's Army," — (Mr. armies. The hon. Member then moved Hanbury-Tracy,) the Amendment.

Amendment proposed,

-instead thereof.

from the opposition of officers. Another difficulty to be got over was the financial one. When Engineer officers were not available to superintend the labour of soldiers, it was in many instances cheaper to employ contract labour.

MR. HEADLAM, in seconding the Motion, said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Question proposed, "That the words Hanbury Tracy) had done exceedingly proposed to be left out stand part of the good service by bringing the subject Question." before the House. He (Mr. Headlam) GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, had long entertained a strong opinion he rose to prevent the House assuming that soldiers might be employed, very that the difficulty in the way of the embeneficially to themselves and the pub-ployment of soldiers arose exclusively lic, upon such works as had been indicated. He did not wish to enter into the economical part of the question; his hon. Friend had shown that a great saving would be effected by the employment of soldiers. But his own experience as Judge Advocate General en- MR. CARDWELL said, he need not abled him to say that many of the crimes assure the House of the entire sympathy which soldiers were guilty of arose in with which he regarded the Motion of reality from lack of employment. He his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury Tracy). believed that if they had the oppor- There could be no doubt that everytunity of earning an honest penny, they thing which diminished idleness among would be better soldiers and better men, soldiers was a boon, seeing that in the and would avoid many heavy punish- army, as out of it, idleness was a fruitments which were now inflicted. He ful source of evil. Anything which inbelieved the House was scarcely aware creased the pay of the soldier, and enof the long terms of punishment to which abled him to add to his comfort, and soldiers were subjected for various crimes that of his family, if he had one, and and offences against military discipline; anything which broke down the barrier and if they could be saved from the between military and civil life, and gave commission of these crimes, that in it- the soldier participation and interest in self, independently of any economical the pursuits of those by whom he was advantage, would be a great and ma- surrounded, must have a beneficial effect. terial benefit. This subject had been Another signal benefit which might be brought forward previously-at least in expected to follow from the introduction the other House-and there had always of soldier labour was the enlistment of been a perfect concession of the truth of artificers who, entering at an early the arguments; but somehow the mili- period of life, might look forward to tary authorities had always neglected returning to civil life, and resuming the to carry their professed opinions into employment to which they had been acpractice. He therefore wished to im- customed, particularly if the term of

service were shortened, as he hoped it the effect on the men's characters was would be. All these advantages re- most excellent. The money earned was commended the Motion to the favour of mostly spent on their families, where the House, and he should be happy to promote any organization which would attain the desired result; but he would caution his hon. Friend not to forget telling his hon. Friend, that in the recent

that in the army you must depend on commanding officers, as it was through them the organization must be carried into effect. When men were separated from the army and given work to do, it was the commanding officer who was responsible for maintaining discipline and preventing undue pressure being put on the other men who were engaged in ordinary regimental duties. It might materially impair discipline and do serious injury to the army if the commanding officers were in any way ignored in this matter. When large savings were spoken of to be effected by this mode of industry, it must be remembered that superintendence had to be provided, and he did not think that in the statistics quoted anything was reckoned for this superintendence. They could only obtain superintendence when they had Engineer officers at their command. Then, again, much must depend upon the number of men in a regiment who were trained for the particular service to which it was desired to put them, and upon their aptitude for it. Of course, if a contractor were doing any given work it would be for him to say what labour should be employed. He had presented a Return to the House, from which hon. Members would find that there had been no indisposition lately to prosecute this system. At Portsmouth, the average numbers of men employed were - civilians, 67; soldiers, 29; at Woolwich - civilians, 35; soldiers, 108; at the Curragh Camp -civilians, 24; soldiers, 53. The Controller had received a letter from Colonel Meredith reporting the results of the system as tried at Parkhurst. The Colonel stated that the men having been selected and classified in trades, they 'were sent to the shops, and received 18. 3d. a day if they worked as artificers, and 9d. if as labourers. In some cases the pay was increased. The hours of labour were eight hours in winter and ten in summer, and the men were paid for overtime. The work was very popular among the men, and though it had been only carried on for a short time,

they had families, and some had accumulated considerable sums in the savings bank. He had the pleasure of

barrack regulations, arrangements had been made for the barrack repairs to be executed, as far as possible, by the men themselves, under the direction of the Royal Engineers. In communicating the information contained in the Returns to the Commander-in-Chief, he had expressed his wish that the attention of commanding officers should be drawn by a circular to the good resulting from the system, and that regiments might be moved as little as possible in cases where they had been tolerably successful in obtaining useful work on their station. He therefore hoped his hon. Friend would be satisfied that the military authorities were alive to the importance of the subject, and fully desirous of extending the system as far as practicable.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £460,800, Clothing Establishments, Services, and Supplies. (2.) £512,900, Barrack Establishments, Services, and Supplies. (3.) £43,800, Divine Service.

(4.) £2,000, Martial Law.

SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, he thought it was high time that the attention of the Committee should be drawn to the degrading practice of branding deserters with the letter "D." He should like to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether it was not contrary to the Articles of War, which specified the place where a man should be branded, to mark him more than once? If soldiers were subjected to the disgraceful punishment, how could it be expected that respectable men would enlist? Men deserting from the police were not branded; and admission to the force was at a premium. It was held to be disgraceful among the men of the police force to be

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