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dismissed; why, then, should it not be would be better to run the risk of a cerso in the army? Since the House had tain percentage of deserters. abolished flogging it would not long MR. BUXTON said, he believed that tolerate the far more barbarous practice the only effectual cure for desertion was of branding. Was it just to mark a man to make the Queen's service as attractive indelibly for an offence committed often- as possible. There was no real reason times from momentary impulse ? why the army should be the only service

COLONEL NORTH said, he entirely which men were forced to enter, especidiffered from the hon. Baronet (Sir ally as it might, without much difficulty, Robert Anstruther). Branding was ne- be made the most attractive service in cessary as a precaution. Formerly the the country. man who had been punished carried the MR. GUEST said, that the term marks of the cat upon his back, but now branding” was quite a misnomer in flogging had been done away with.

It the case.

The operation was known to was absolutely necessary that something the doctors as cupping. In reality, it should be done to prevent a deserter de- mplied nothing more than the tattooceiving the country by a second enlist- ing to which nearly all sailors voment. It had been stated, on more than luntarily submitted.

There was one occasion in that House, that desertion branding with a hot iron. The practice was becoming a regular trade, and an was necessary as a precaution against instance had been given of one man who fraud an evil against which photohad deserted no less than thirteen times. graphy, while being very expensive, It was necessary to have some means by could afford no protection whatever. which they could prevent men, who from VISCOUNT BURY, in answer to the their appearance frequently seemed to be remarks of the hon. Member for Surrey likely to make good soldiers, from re-(Mr. Buxton), said, that to make the enlisting after desertion. Unless they army more attractive would be to make could devise some such means there it worth the while of dishonest men to was nothing to prevent such blackguards enter the service for the sake of deserting from enlisting in all the regiments in it. It would be impossible for commandthe British army.

It was all very well ing officers from mere photographs to for hon. Gentlemen to get up in that pick out men who had deserted or been House and talk about degrading the dismissed for bad conduct, and prevent soldier; but the opponents to the present them from joining the ranks. There system ought to be prepared to recom- appeared to be an idea that this brandmend some equally efficacious means of ing was similar to the branding of cattle; preventing re-enlistment after desertion. whereas in reality it was nothing more

LORD ELCHO said, that the idea of than pricking the flesh with a needle branding human beings as one would and rubbing in some gunpowder. Albrand cattle was most repulsive. The most every sailor in Her Majesty's fleet practice appeared to be a relic of past bore similar marks, and if a sailor rolled times, of times such as those of Charles II. up his shirt sleeves he generally dis-a very pious monarch—when the Mu- closed the initials of his own name and tiny Act of the day contained a provision of the name of at least one of his ladythat any soldier speaking disrespectfully loves. Of course, it might be said that of the doctrine of the Trinity or swearing marking with a “D” was a sign of disshould be liable to have his tongue bored grace, but the disgrace was not to be through with a hot iron. The question inflicted unless it was deserved. He which the House would shortly have to certainly thought we ought to retain one consider was not whether men should be means by which we could prevent debranded several times, but whether that serters from attempting to enlist in other punishment should be inflicted at all

. regiments. Even burglars were not branded. He LORD GARLIES said, that it was at believed that desertion might be pre- the discretion of the courts-martial, and vented as well as it was under the pre- not imperative upon them, to order a sent system by resorting to photography, prisoner to be marked in this way, and which had been found of so much use in the punishment was frequently, in the enabling the police to recognize offenders case of young and inexperienced solagainst the law. If, however, no other diers, withheld, in the hope that the remedy could be devised, he thought it leniency exhibited might be attended



with beneficial effects. Nor was it for Truro (Captain Vivian), who was a necessary to imprint another“D” on de- Member of the Commission, he came to serters upon a fresh conviction.

the conclusion that it would be premature MR. CARNEGIE said, that the effect to do so, not from the slightest unwilof this system was to deter good men lingness to give effect to the Report of from enlisting. The punishment ought the Commission, but for these reasons, to be abolished altogether, and com- In their first Report the Commissioners manding officers ought to have the power recommended many alterations in the of discharging bad characters. Any mode of punishment which would diloss thus sustained would be fully made minish the number of imprisonments, up by the enlistment of a better class of substituting fines; for example, for drunk

enness, which was the fertile mother of MR. CARDWELL said, he hoped all imprisonments. It was thus highly that the day had gone by when desertion probable that the number of imprisonwas or would be anything like what it ments might be diminished. Then the was when he first entered Parliament. contemplated reduction in the number of There were now excellent candidates for men might lead to the disappearance of admission into the service, and he hoped the most frequent inhabitants of the to see the day when marking would be military prisons. And, lastly, he thought altogether abolished.

The history of it better to wait until the final Report of the question was this—At one time an the Commission had been presented, enormous system of fraud was practised together with the evidence, so that Parby men who enlisted first in one regi- liament might be fully informed upon ment of the army, then in the Militia, the whole subject. and who went from one regiment to COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, another. Such was the loss occasioned the Commission had presented their first to the public in this way that, in 1844, Report because they thought that the Parliament altered the Mutiny Act, and Government should be put in possession

- he would not enter now upon the legal of their opinion that, consequent upon question — appeared to make it more the abolition of corporal punishment in stringent. His opinion had been asked, the army, it was necessary that some not

upon the legal question, but whether system of severer punishments should be marking should be regarded as a proper adopted in order to prevent crimes that punishment. His answer was clear— were likely to prevail. The Commission, he did not think it ought. It was not among other things, had recommended meant to be inflicted as a punishment, the infliction of severer punishments than but for the prevention of fraud; so that could be inflicted under the present prison the second infliction of it was wrong, system, and for that reason they had and he felt no doubt that His Royal suggested the building of a new central Highness the Commander-in-Chief would prison. He hoped this suggestion would be of the same opinion.

be carried out without delay. At the COLONEL NORTH asked whether any present moment, there was scarcely a steps had been taken to carry out the military prison where punishment could recommendation of the Royal Commis- be inflicted according to the mode recomsion on Military Punishments, who had mended by the Commission. The resuggested the establishment of a central commendation of the Commission should military prison, and whether there was be carried out as soon as possible, for any foundation for the statement that since the abolition of corporal punishcrime in the army was on the increase ? ment certain crimes, such as insubordi

MR. CARDWELL said, that one of nation, had increased. He would, therethe first questions which came before fore, suggest to the Secretary of State for him on taking Office was the first Re- War that, under these circumstances, port of the Commission upon this sub- the civil prisons throughout the country ject, and he had been very desirous of should be made available for military putting into the Estimates of the present punishments until the prison referred to year a sum of money for the purpose of could be built. carrying into effect the recommendation MR. OTWAY said, he was surprised as to the central prison. Upon con- at the statement that crime had increased. sultation, however, with Colonel Hen- in the army since the abolition of corderson and his hon. Friend the Member poral punishment. He had heard nothing of this. On the contrary, according to have any proof that one crime was not his information, there had been a great on the increase. improvement in the character of the MR. CARDWELL said, he thought army, and the character of the men who it would be wiser to wait for the evioffered themselves for enlistment was dence before they discussed the matter much higher. He hoped the right hon. further. Gentleman would take an early opportu- MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he wished nity of laying some evidence of his to know whether the conduct of men statement before the House.

had been better since the abolition of COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, he flogging than it was before, seeing that should lose no time in doing so. He the Estimates for detection of crime did not know where the Under Secretary and for imprisonment had decreased by of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Otway) £15,000 ? had got his facts, but they were cer- MR. CARDWELL said, in reply, that tainly very different from what were the apparent reduction was owing to stated before the Commission. He had changes made with regard to clothing that very morning been informed upon and stores which were transferred to the highest possible authority, that there another Vote. had been a very great increase of the

Vote agreed to. crime of insubordination in the army. For instance, in 1866, that crime pre- (5.) £366,800, Hospital Establishvailed in one branch of that service at ment, Services, and Supplies. the rate of .6 per cent, in 1867, it was VISCOUNT BURY said, there was an .9 per cent, while, in 1868, it had risen to item of £1,123 under the head of con1.9 per cent. This had not been given tingencies of the Medical Department in evidence before the Commission, but for travelling. He had been informed if the hon. Gentleman would come be- that in a regiment quartered in London fore the Commission and state any evi- several invalids were ordered for change dence to the contrary effect they would of air to some place on the sea-coast; be delighted to hear him, and his state- but they were unable to take advantage ments might materially affect the Report of the order because no fund existed to of the Commission.

pay their travelling expenses. The conMR. OTWAY said, that it would be sequence was that the services of these unnecessary for him to do so, seeing men were likely to be permanently lost that the right hon. Gentleman was going to the country. He wished to know to lay the evidence on which he based whether the item he had referred to inhis opinion before the House, when it cluded any sum for the travelling excould be discussed. It was not, how- penses of convalescents for change of ever, absolutely necessary to take infor- air. mation on this subject from a Royal MR. CARDWELL said, the item alCommission, and he could only say that luded to by the noble Lord had referseveral commanding officers had in- ence to the travelling expenses of mediformed him that the state of the army cal officers. There was no sum prohad improved since the abolition of cor- vided in this Estimate for the travelling poral punishment. If the right hon. expenses of convalescents. Gentleman was about to show that crime LORD GARLIES said, the charge of had increased since the abolition of cor- £4,700 for the treatment of lunatics poral punishment, he thought they had showed a reduction of £500 on last year. better wait until they had the evidence He wished to know on what basis that before them.

reduction was made, seeing that there COLONEL WILSON - PATTEN said, would be a large increase in the number the hon. Gentleman should not misre- of troops at home this year? present him. What he had said was, not MR. CARDWELL said, in reply, that crime had increased, but that one that lunatics were now more rapidly particular crime had increased. The sent to their parishes than was the case Commission were taking the greatest formerly. pains to obtain information on the point, VISCOUNT BURY said, that if it was and if the hon. Gentleman really pos- the case that there was no sum available sessed it he ought to let them have it. for the conveyance of convalescents to The Commission would be delighted to the sea-side, it was hardly creditable

at any

to the country, and he would suggest (6.) £1,150,000, Military Stores Dewhether it would not be well to put partments. aside some such sum for the future.

MR. J. D. LEWIS said, he rose to He would ask the right hon. Gentleman call attention to the extensive changes on the Report of that Vote whether he at present being made at the Royal Lawould not undertake to ask Parliament boratory, Devonport, and to ask in what to set aside such a fund next year?

manner the work hitherto carried on at

that establishment was in future to be Vote agreed to.

performed ? Motion made, and Question proposed, in Chief found that it was not necessary

MR. CARDWELL said, the Controller "That a sum, not exceeding £952,700, be to maintain a separate establishment at of the Militia and Inspection of Reserve Forces, charged by the Store Department as be. granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge Devonport. The duties would be diswhich will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1869 to the 31st day of March tween 1850 and 1858, and the result 1870, inclusive.”

would be a considerable economy. GENERAL PERCY HERBERT said, to know the amount of stores lying in the

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he wished he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would different depôts, and the value of them? consent to report Progress, as there was

MR. CARDWELL said, he was not an important question to be raised on the Reserve Fund, with which this Vote sure how far it was possible to give an

inventory of stores in different parts of the was connected.

world, but he should be extremely happy MR. CARDWELL said, he had been

time to communicate to the House waiting for the noble Lord the Member all the information he could collect on for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho), to the subject. Every means would be introduce his Motion. He was not de- taken to get rid of surplus stores. There sirous of depriving any hon. Gentleman


was a considerable reduction in this Vote, of an opportunity of raising a discussion which he had no doubt would be reon a particular Vote. He had consented garded with great satisfaction by the to postpone the Yeomanry Vote ; but

Committee. they had not yet been an hour in Com

LORD GEORGE HAMILTON asked, mittee of Supply, and the noble Lord, whether a larger proportion of the arms if he did not bring forward the question had not been made at Birmingham than at that moment, could raise the discus- had previously been the case ? sion at another opportunity on the Mo- MR. CARDWELL said, the power tion that the House resolve into a Com- of the Small Arms Factory had not been mittee of Supply on the Army Estimates. diminished, though it was now being

LORD ELCHO said, he was anxious worked at a low point from there being to have a full discussion on the important question of the Army of Reserve, of very little work to do. It was true that

a small portion of the Enfield rifles rewhich the Militia was one of the main elements, and it would be perfectly ab- quired for the service had been given

, surd to begin the discussion

at that hour it was economical to rely in some degree

to manufacturing companies, because (twenty minutes to twelve o'clock). There had been a general impression that the maintain establishments large enough to

upon the trade for supplies, and not to Votes bearing on that question would be

supply the whole of our requirements. postponed. He should endeavour to With regard to the new Henry-Martini condense his remarks as much as pos- rifles, 200 were being manufactured, sible; but it was quite impossible that which would not be ready until August, the matter could have been adequately though a few would be ready for the use of dealt with at the hour the House went the National Rifle Association at Wimbleinto Committee-eleven o'clock.

don. MR. CARDWELL said, that the noble Enfield was being altered for the pur

A portion of the machinery at Lord could not attach more importance

pose of making this new rifle, and then than he (Mr. Cardwell) did to the ques- they would be made in larger quantities, tion. As time would only be wasted in discussing what they should do, he would the Henri-Martini would be the arm of

though the first decision as to whether at once consent to postpone the Vote.

the service could not be taken until they Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

had been tried in hot and cold climates,

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON asked if Commission recommended either that a the establishment at Enfield was to re- central military prison should be estabmain as it was now?

lished at Aldershot, or that a contract MR. CARDWELL said, that there should be made with local prisons ready would be no alteration at Enfield, except to receive military prisoners. If his that a smaller number of men would be right hon. Friend would do either the employed, as there was less work to do. one or the other he should be content.

SIR PATRICK O'BRIEN said, he MR. CARDWELL said, he had dewished to ask whether it would not be sired to include an estimate for a central better that in future this portion of the military prison in the present Estimates, Estimate relating to the navy should but not having yet received the final be placed under the management of the Report of the Commission, and being Admiralty ?

doubtful as to the number of prisoners MR. CARDWELL said, he had no for whom provision ought to be made, doubt it would be very satisfactory_to he thought it better to wait for the Reanyone who had to move the Army Es- port, and hold himself at liberty to protimates to be relieved of all that related pose an estimate for the prison a little to the naval service, but he could not later, if it were found necessary to do so. say

that the navy had much at present Sir ROBERT ANSTRUTHER said, to complain of. There was the best he desired some explanation as to the possible understanding between his right Vote of £32,000 for the purchase of hon. Friend the First Lord of the Ad- ground for storehouses at North Woolmiralty and himself, and he did not wich. know that any change would be made MR. CARDWELL said, in reply, that in that matter.

the amount originally proposed was Vote agreed to.

£70,000, but the Control Department

at Woolwich had effected a considerable (7.) £884,000, Works, Buildings, and saving in reference to the matter, and Repairs.

the store houses in question being no NR. C. W. MARTIN said, he wished longer wanted would be re-sold. to call attention to the position of the

COLONEL BARTTELOT said, he wished clerks of works of the Royal Engineer for an explanation of the excess over the department, who within the last few original estimate of £260,000 for the years had been compelled to serve abroad, defences of the dockyard and naval anand whose widows were not allowed pen- chorage at Bermuda. The estimate had sions supposing the men died on active now increased to £375,000. service. These officers had insured their

MR. CARDWELL said, the increase lives, and when ordered on foreign ser

was very vexatious, and arose partly vice their insurances were vitiated. A from the fact that there was no convict discussion had taken place last year,

labour available, and partly because the when General Dunne called attention compensation under a local Act was asto the position of clerks of works in the sessed by local juries, who gave much Engineers' department, and a sort of larger sums than were anticipated. half-promise was given that the claims Vote agreed to. of their widows should be considered. House resumed. MR. CARDWELL said, he was not

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; aware that his hon. Friend intended to

Committee to sit again upon Wednesbring that matter forward. He confessed the case was entirely new to him, but he would consider it. That question, however, ought properly to be raised on PAROCHIAL SCHOOLMASTERS (SCOTLAND) the Non-effective Votes. He believed that no pensions were contemplated in

On Motion of Mr. M'LAREN, Bill to amend the case of clerks of works, but he would the Law relating to the appointment of Paroinquire.

chial Schoolmasters in Scotland, ordered to be MR. WHITBREAD said, he wished brought in by Mr. M'LAREN, Sir Edward COLEto know what his right hon Friend in- BROOKE, and Mr. Fordyce. tended to do with reference to the Re

Bill presented, and read the first time. (Bill 72.] port of the Court Martial Commission

House adjourned at a quarter on the subject of military prisons. The

after Twelve o'clock.



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