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in number, they had at all events never | and therefore the argument of numbers been answered. If the speeches which would apply with equal force in favour had been delivered by those who were of a measure depriving the former of opposed to the measure were deficient in their property and distributing it among quantity they were excellent in quality. the latter. It was further said that the The two propositions to which he in- Establishment in Ireland had proved a tended to address himself were—first, grievous failure ; but the right hon. that no case had been made out in sup- Gentleman had himself answered that port of the policy of the Government; objection by telling the House that the and, secondly, that sound and substantial Irish Church had never had a fair trial reasons exist why that policy should not until within the last few years. The be adopted. What were the reasons on right hon. Gentleman the President of which the House was asked to pass this the Board of Trade (Mr. Bright) had measure? In the first place hon. Mem- declared that the Church in Ireland was bers opposite talked about justice; but established for the purpose of converting was not that a cry that might be raised the people of Ireland, and of knitting with equal effect by those who objected them into union with England. The to the Bill? Hon. Members who op- right hon. Gentleman, with his knowposed the Government measure were also ledge of the New Testament, must be desirous that justice should be done to aware that the primary object for which Ireland, and were prepared to investi- the Church was founded was that it gate most carefully any complaint which should be a witness for truth. Unemanated from, and to redress any griev- doubtedly we are entitled to expect as a ances that might be proved to exist in, result of that witness that the people that country, in the same way as they should be converted and more closely were prepared to redress English griev- united to this country; but, it did not ances. It was impossible, however, to ex- follow, that because the effects expected pect that complaints from either country from it had not been seen, therefore the could be accepted unless supported by testimony to the truth had not been proofs. It was said that the matter faithfully given. A careless mariner must be looked at from an Irish point of might neglect the warning given by the view, and that the House must endea- friendly beacon; but we never heard a vour to legislate for Ireland according to man argue, that, because a ship had the views of the majority of the Irish been wrecked in its neighbourhood, people. But was the right hon. Gentle- therefore a lighthouse should be pulled man prepared to yield all the demands down, or the light put out. But had the advanced by the majority of the Irish Irish Establishment been altogether a people ? If he were not prepared to fulfil failure ? He had it on the authority of the hopes to which his language had gentlemen well acquainted with the subgiven rise it was to be feared that the ject that the average congregations atdisappointment of the Irish people would tending the churches in Ireland were be bitter and their resentment strong equal to those who attended churches in when they found that they had been be- this country. [“Oh!”] If hon. Memtrayed by Her Majesty's Government. bers would turn to the official Report of The next argument in favour of the Bill the Commissioners, published in 1834, was that of numbers, but numbers were they would find that the Church popuno test of truth. Upon this point he lation in parishes in Connemara and should call the right hon. Gentleman the Joyce, in the county of Galway, which Prime Minister himself as a witness. only amounted, in that year to 692, had The right hon. Gentleman in his work increased to 2,379, in the year 1861, acupon Church and State had recorded his cording to the Census Returns. The deliberate opinion as follows:- Bishop of Tuam, in a speech which he

"We support it, albeit the Church of the delivered about two years ago, had minority, on the high ground of conscientious stated that the number of the Church necessity, for its truth,"

population in his diocese had also largely But was the right hon. Gentleman pre- increased. Moreover, large numbers of pared to follow the argument of numbers converts from Romanism had left for to its legitimate conclusion? The land- England and Scotland, or for emigration owners of Ireland were far inferior in to America, and large numbers of young numbers to those who possessed no land, men had enlisted in the army or joined


the navy

The next point alleged in /ism in Ireland ? Surely that was the favour of the measure was that the Church view of the matter that Roman Catholics of Ireland was the cause of the discon- took, or otherwise they would not be tent, which had culminated in Fenianism; found among the advocates of the Bill. but that remained to be proved. What They support it, and they have good had been the result of the promise which reasons for so doing. First, it removes had been held out by the Government a rival from a post of advantage; then, that the Establishment in that country it provides a permanent endowment for should be abolished ? He read in The Maynooth; and, further, it will place Times of the 20th of March, 1869, under other funds under the control of the the head of “ Ireland,” the following Roman Catholic Bishops. The right hon. statement :

Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ire“ The spirit of the misguided patriots is as per- land, in answer to the remarks of the verse as ever. Colonel Warner counsels union hon. and learned Gentleman the Member against the common enemy. The people of for South-west Lancashire, asked how Ireland are determined to be free. England is could the people of Ireland be benefited beginning to believe we have made up our minds to the end. I believe in the eloquence of the by this measure if the surplus of the sabre.”

money of the Irish Church did not go to The Establishment was the cause of dis- the Roman Catholics ? But the objection content, not because of itself, but be- which the hon. and learned Member made cause it was associated with British and which the right hon. Gentleman ought power. The right hon. Gentleman the to have answered was, that the surplus President of the Board of Trade asserted funds of the Irish Church property would that it was objectionable as being a

find their way into the hands of the badge of conquest; but were not the tax Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland, and collectors, the British army, and the be administered by them for their own presence of the Lord Lieutenant, as the purposes.

If this were the case, the representative of the Crown, equally with House of Commons by this Bill would the Irish Church badges of conquest ? be giving an impetus to Romanism; and Were they to be abolished also ? If so, if they did that, they would be giving an the right hon. Gentleman should go a impetus to the deadly enemy of Protestlittle further, and should bring in a Bill antism. The consequence would be that to repeal the Union. The true cause of either one of the two must at once go the discontent in Ireland was pointed down, or there must be a long and out by a gentleman who was formerly deadly struggle between them. And the representative in that House of yet this was set before them as the Sheffield, and he must express the re

measure which was to produce peace in gret he felt that that gentleman no Ireland. Another hint ħad been thrown longer occupied his accustomed seat. In out that the history of Ireland was just addressing his constituents last month, about to commence; that Ireland was no Mr. Roebuck said

longer to be treated as an integral por• The real difficulty of Ireland is the priesthood. tion of the Empire, but as a colony, like

We do now to Ireland what we do to Canada; that her present Government ourselves, and the only reason why we are not at was provisional. But what had been peace with Ireland is the priesthood of that coun- done for Canada ? Canada possessed a try. . . . . . You cannot allow a power in Ire Legislative Assembly. Did they mean to land to be supreme over the Protestant power of England. Give the Irish people what they are

give a Legislative Assembly to Ireland ? entitled to, and no more, but recollect that the The Secretary for Ireland said that this Catholic priest is never satisfied. He is never Bill ought to be passed cause the Irish satisfied unless he is dominant."

people had demanded religious equality. Then they were told that this measure À portion of them might have done so, would do no injury to Protestantism. It but had they never demanded Repeal? might be that Irish Protestantism was Was it also to be given to them? Why no mere sickly plant, likely to die with- did Her Majesty's Government resist out a struggle, and that Irish Church- the one demand and yield to the other? men would rise to the occasion, but that The demand for disestablishment, made was no reason why they should be treated by only a portion of the people, was to with injustice. If this measure were be granted. How long could they herecarried out in its entirety, would it or after resist the demand for Repeal, would it not give an impetus to Roman-made, as it would be, by the voice of

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united Ireland ? Another reason for the represented as national property, that is, Bill, urged from the Government Benches, as held under an entirely different tenure was that the time had come. The Prime from any other property. The first and Minister told the House that there was second of these principles referred to disa crisis in the affairs of Ireland—that- establishment; and any hon. Member who

"Venit summa dics et ineluctabile fatum." doubted on the subject would do well to The Chancellor of the Exchequer had read the book of the Prime Minister, put it in an epigrammatic manner

which had never yet been answered. 1. The hour is come and the man;" but

The right hon. Gentleman had explained was it not the man who had made the the reason which had induced him to hour? The fact was, there was a per

change his opinion; but he had not anpetual crisis in Ireland, and they ought swered his own book. The third pro

It to show that the measure proposed would position related to disendowment. remedy the evil. But this had not beer was stated that the property of the Irish done. Another reason,

Church was national property.

Was recently offered to the House, in support of the policy of this so? What were the facts of the the Government was, that a good use

case? He spoke subject to correction would be made of the money.

by any

hon, and learned Gentleman right hon. Gentleman the President of present, and he asserted that, according the Board of Trade in very touching to English law, all property in the counlanguage reminded the House of the try, whether that of individuals, or that many phases of human woe and human of corporate bodies, was held of the suffering which could not possibly be Crown. Undoubtedly, the Crown might, removed, but which the kindly pro- Parliament, resume possession of any

for sufficient reasons, with the advice of visions of the Bill might tend to relieve ; and he reminded them of the property. But that applied to property spirit of Him whose life was pourtrayed held by a corporate body. The House

held by an individual as well as to that in the Gospel, and of His sympathy for human suffering; and he seemed to inti- did sometimes legislate as regarded mate that they would be rendering an

private property. For instance, in the acceptable service to the Almighty by case of felony, the felon forfeited his appropriating the money taken from the property; but it did not follow from Church in the manner proposed. The this that the Crown was to seize the right hon. Gentleman appeared to have property of an individual without as

If forgotten that the same Volume of Inspi- signing any reason for so doing.

Parliament declared that any man who ration forbade in

express terms robbery for burnt offerings. If they examined wore a white hat should be deemed the reasons that had been alleged on

guilty of felony, it would not be right of behalf of the measure—if they carefully it to deprive of their property all men removed all irrelevant matter—what was

who wore white hats without giving left? Did any substantial reason remain

them previous notice of it and assigning why the House should adopt the policy to retain her property was now disputed;

a reason. The title of the Irish Church of Her Majesty's Government? After careful analysis, the only residuum to be but he would quote Roman Catholic found was that which was expressed by Nicolas Slevin, in his evidence before

authority on that point. The Rev. the old satirist

the Commission on Irish Education, in “ Hoc volo, sic jubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas.”

1826, made this statementHe thought that no cause had been

“ I consider present possessors of Church proshown for going into Committee. The fact

perty in Ireland, of whatever description they was, three principles were assumed

may be, have a just title to it on various grounds. in the arguments of the supporters of They have been bona fide possessors for Government which could not be proved all the time required by any law for prescription: to be true. They were these—that the even according to the pretensions of the Court of inhabitants of a nation collectively and

Rome, which requires 100 years, and even on the individuals who governed were not have any pretension to it.”

ground of express consent of those who might severally responsible for their public acts; that numbers or population were to be The rev. gentleman referred to a reregarded as the test of truth, and that script of Pope Benedict XIV., in 1752. . ecclesiastical property might be correctly Did the House want any more proofs'



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[" No.”] Then he might assume that chimerical; but at this Congress, ache had proved his case, and that hon. cording to the report in The Times, the Gentlemen on the other side were going following resolutions were passed :to vote against going into Committee. The soil ought to be common property. PriWhat was the view taken of the rights vate property in soil, as it at present exists, has of property by lawyers in the United been created by legislative Acts, and can be aboStates ? He commended the opinion of lished by legislative Acts, as humanity has aboChief Justice Redfield on this point to hurtful to society.”

lished other institutions when they have become the notice of the President of the Board What was the feeling of Ireland upon of Trade. That right hon. Gentleman this question ?

The measure did not was loud in his praise of everything produce much quiet there, for The Times American, both in the House and out of April 12 reported that, of it. Chief Justice Redfield says, with reference to the case of property be

“The Ribband conspiracy has again reared its longing to Trinity Church in New York, head in more formidable proportions than usual.

Criminal justice is almost paralyzed by a that

secret organization.

It aims at the re" The humblest citizen and the mightiest cor" dress by violent and lawless means of supposed poration hold their pecuniary rights by the same agrarian wrongs,” tenure, the public sense of justice. The same The population of Ireland, therefore, act of legislation which distributes the property of Trinity Church for such objects and purposes as

was looking forward to a change in the seem meet to the Legislature, or what is the same

tenure of property.

He had been surthing in principle, subjects it to control foreign prised to hear it urged by the hon. to its charter, might also deprive the humblest Member for Galway (Mr. W. 8. Gregory) citizen of his home, or his bed, or his Bible. And, as a justification of this measure, that if the first is allowed now, the day will come when

Parliament enabled railway companies the others cannot be successfully resisted."

to take private property for the purposes He thought it was due to the House that of their works. Why, Parliament never the Government should offer some ex- allowed this to be done without ample planation of their intended invasion of compensation. Had there ever been an the rights of property. He wished now instance in which Parliament permitted to state some substantial reasons against a private company to cut through Church the Bill. He believed it would add to land, and had said that no compensation the Irish difficulty. It was unjust to the need be made because it was national Protestants of Ireland. The mode in property ? This

was, in fact, a step which the First Minister proposed to deal towards the overthrow of the Protestant with them reminded one of the stories of Constitution in England. One by one those Arab robbers, who, having taken the distinctive marks had been removed, all a man possessed, looked out for the and now it was said that Protestant asmost ragged shirt they could find in his cendancy must perish. Why? What wardrobe, and gave it to him as an act evil had it done ? On this point he of unparalleled generosity. But this would read the opinion of a hon. Memwas the course taken by the Bill. They ber of the House (Mr. Sadler), in 1829, were told that this measure would give who said — the Roman Catholic population in Ire

“Protestant ascendancy the source of the dis. land confidence in the English govern- orders of Ireland! Why, Sir, any man who knows ment. The measure could not be in- anything of the history of that unhappy countrytended to deceive the Irish people; and and I speak in the hearing of many who will corif it were not Parliament would have to rect me if I err-must be well aware that the re-model our whole system of govern- the turbulence and the misery which it occasions,

state of things now sought to be remedied, and ment in Ireland, so as to make it accord existed in a still greater degree, and produced far with Fenian policy. He believed the more lamentable consequences before the Reformpolicy of this Bill would recoil on the ation, when, consequently, there was only one repeople of England, the Church of Eng-ligion in the country.”—[2 Hansard, xx., 1151.] land, on the Crown of England, and on The change to be effected by this meathe tenure of property in England. To sure in the relation between Church show that the latter was no rash asser- and State appeared to him to be an act tion, he would refer the House to certain of national apostacy. As he understood proceedings at the International Work- the argument of the hon. and learned ing Men's Congress held at Brussels, in Member opposite (Sir Roundell Palmer) 1868. It was said that our fears were respecting this point, it went to prove that

a change of form in the national religion United Kingdom. It would alienate was not necessarily an act of national the Protestants of Ireland. They were apostacy. In that he concurred. But planted in Ulster for the purposes of he could not agree with the hon. and England; they were persuaded to accept learned Gentleman that the religion of the Act of Union under the idea that each individual would remain the same thereby they would acquire greater secuas it was before the change, where the rity, and now we turned round and said individuals in their collective capacity - “You are no longer to be considered had cast off all religion. The nation as a part of the United Kingdom; you was but an aggregate of individuals. If are but a minority in a Roman Catholic these collectively decline to recognize country; we will no longer respect the God, could it be said that the relation- solemn compact by which we bound ourship of each individual to Him had under selves; oaths and promises go for nogone no change? The voice of the multi- thing; we will cut you adrift and you tude forming the State was the voice of must take care of yourselves.” They individuals, and the responsibility of each would do so probably, and at our cost. individual constituted national responsi- What was there to set against this? bility. He believed that national sin Was it probable that the majority in must be followed by national punish- Ireland would be won over by this act ment, and therefore he urged the House of perfidy? Fenianism was as perverse to reject the Bill. He urged this not in as ever. Ribbandism, according to The the interest of the Church, but of the Times, was reviving and worse than ever; nation. They were told that God would the majority, stimulated by the measures defend His own truth. No doubt; but of the right hon. Gentleman, would, as would He bless the nation who deliber- of yore, plot sedition; and the minority, ately cast off all recognition of His truth? who had been our allies, would be driven What was the feeling of the people of by our own act into the ranks of our America on this subject? The same opponents. There was no prospect of copy of The Times which contained the peace for poor Ireland; no prospect of speech of the Prime Minister introducing increased friendship towards England. the Bill contained a quotation from the We had been told that the vessel of the New York Times with which he would State was about to enter troubled waters. trouble the House

Was this a time to fling away our com“A great number of petitions have been pre- pass, to tear up our chart, to abandon sented to Congress of lato asking for an amend the helm of principle, and let the good ment of the Constitution that will recognize the ship drift before the wind of a false and existence and authority of the Almighty, and mis-called expediency? Who could tell some of them ask for an acknowledgment of the whither it would drift? Yet this was Christian religion."

the advice offered to the House and the Then there was a notice of a Convention, country by Her Majesty's Government. consisting of a hundred delegates from He believed that it was not sound advice, different religious denominations, which and in the name of his constituents he met at Ohio, February 2, to consider the protested against it. claims of God and of the Christian re

MR. PERCY WYNDHAM said, he ligion upon the State and the nation. I wished to offer a few remarks as to the This was one of the resolutions

way in which it was proposed to deal " Nations are moral persons and bound by with the College of Maynooth. As he moral law.

Like a family, the nation understood the proposal of the Governmay, and ought to, worship God.”

ment, the effect would be that Maynooth While we, therefore, were casting off all would receive a lump sum of £360,000 national recognition of religion, the in lieu of the grants of £26,000 a year Americans were beginning to see the from the Consolidated Fund. Now if importance of such a recognition. He in 1845 Maynooth had been offered a thought he had shown conclusively that lump sum of £360,000, could there be a the arguments and assertions by which doubt that she would have gladly acthis Bill was supported were not based cepted it in place of the annual grant of on proof, and that sound reasons exist £26,000 ? The right hon. Gentleman against the adoption of the policy of the had stated that the Irish Church was to Government. This measure would not be disestablished because it was the rebring peace to Ireland or strengthen the ligion of the minority; and that when-,

[ Committee.

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