also offered the harbour to a Portpatrick ren, making altogether 364 individuals and Donaghadee Steam Company, but who had been reduced to poverty by they rejected the offer. When the in- these reductions. One thing that made habitants would not have a harbour them very doubtful whether the Governwhen it was offered to them, was it not ment would not recur to the system that too bad to call upon the Government to had been given up was the enormous

ntain it at the public expense ? The expense incurred under the new system. Government could not consent to incur The guns used to be sent to the Gun this expenditure, and he regretted to be Wharf, where there was every facility obliged to call upon the House to refuse for repairing them; but now, instead of this Committee.

being repaired by the skilled labourers MR. PIM said, that the hon. Gentle- at Portsmouth, workmen were sent from man the Secretary to the Treasury had | Woolwich to Portsmouth. The differspoken of the large expenditure upon ence in the cost of repairing the pointers the Kingstown harbour as if it had been to the turret-guns of the Scorpion was incurred solely for the sake of the com- that at Portsmouth it would have been munication between Holyhead and Dub- £8 128. 8d, while the expense incurred lin. That was by no means the case. by sending men from Woolwich was The fact was it was a harbour of refuge, £19 198. 6d. Under these circumstances which accounted for its great cost, and it was difficult to persuade these men after a gale it would be found filled with that the Government were serious in vessels which were not from Irish ports giving up the Gun Wharf ; and he only, but also from Liverpool, from wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, Scotland, and from all ports from which Whether there was any chance of their vessels passed down the Irish Channel. being again employed either at PortsIf the harbour had been required merely mouth or in any other branch where for purposes of intercommunication be- their skill would be available ? tween Holyhead and Dublin, scarcely MR. CARDWELL said, that in pura tenth of the outlay would have been suing the reductions, which a sense of necessary.

public duty had compelled the Govern

ment to carry into effect, it had been GOVERNMENT REDUCTIONS AND EMI.

necessary

to restore the ancient state of GRATION.-OBSERVATIONS.

things which had existed before the erSIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE said, istence of the Portsmouth Gun Wharf he wished to call the attention of the in 1862. It appeared that works, such Secretary for War to a Question which as were carried on there, were found to he should have brought forward subse- be better conducted by a single estabquently on the Army Estimates, but that lishment. The hon. and gallant Gentlethe circumstances were somewhat press- man was mistaken in supposing that it ing. The House was no doubt aware was more expensive to send workmen that there was at Portsmouth an estab- from Woolwich to do work of this deslishment called the Gun Wharf. The cription. The truth was that the repair Ordnance Department found guns for of the turret-pointers of the Scorpion the navy, and repaired them when they was exceptional work, and was quite were out of order. Lord Herbert im- irrespective of the question as between proved this department, and placed in Portsmouth and Woolwich. The Superthe Gun Wharf at Portsmouth some of intendent of the Gun Factory sent these the best machinery. In consequence of men from Woolwich in consequence of the reductions in the Government de- the peculiarity of the work to be done partments, a large number of the per- on board the Scorpion. The Government sons employed in the Gun Wharf were desired to alleviate the distress which discharged, and they were willing to ac- the reduction of their establishments cept the offer of emigration made to might cause; and the Admiralty, with them, if they were persuaded that their the consent of the Treasury, offered services would not be again required. these men a passage to Canada. A porThey were skilled labourers, and it tion of them accepted the offer; and, would be a thousand pities for this certainly, it was not in his power to say country to lose them. There were 113 anything to induce them to change their men discharged, who had belonging to minds, or to withdraw from the acceptthem seventy-six women and 175 child- ance of the offer,

Motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now hension. Everybody, I imagine, will feel leave the Chair," by leave, withdrawn. it to be desirable that the Act of Union

should not be disturbed, unless disturbCommittee deferred till Monday next.

ance is absolutely necessary for the

policy which Her Majesty's Ministers, IRISH CHURCH BILL.-[BILL 27.] supported by the majority that voted for (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. John Bright, the second reading of this Bill, have sigMr. Chichester Fortescue, Mr. Attorney

nified their desire to adopt. If the General for Ireland.)

Committee are of opinion that the policy

recommended by Her Majesty's GovernCOMMITTEE.

ment is the right policy, and that it can Bill considered in Committee.

be only accomplished by dissolving the (In the Committee.)

union between the Churches of England Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the and of Ireland, they are fully justified. Bill.

no doubt, from their view of the case, in Clause 2 (Dissolution of legislative proposing an alteration in the terms of union between Churches of England sides of the House will probably admit

that union. But everybody on both and Ireland).

that if you can accomplish the policy MR. DISRAELI : Sir, I had given which you have before you without mednotice of my intention to propose an dling with the Union between Great BritAmendment to this clause, but I will not ain and Ireland, to avoid doing so would press it on this occasion, because it might be highly desirbale.

Whatever may lead to a prolonged discussion. The be the opinions which hon. Gentlemen Amendment refers to the date at which entertain of the various important printhis Act is to come into play; the Com-ciples involved in this policy, and of the mittee will have numerous opportunities serious consequences which may result of considering that question, and to at- from it, all will agree that it is highly tempt to settle it now might lead to a desirable the object in view should be debate of considerable duration, and attained without unnecessarily interferwould divert attention from the point ing with so important a public document which I am anxious to bring before the and muniment of title as the Act of Committee. I shall have an opportu- Union. I would ask the Committee to nity, if necessary, upon the Report, of consider what is the character of that proposing an alteration of date, if cir- union so created between the Churches cumstances should justify that course; of England and of Ireland. By the 5th and therefore I will now proceed, with Article of the Treaty, and afterwards by the permission of the Committee, to the Act of Union, it is provided that move that the 2nd clause of the Bill there should be a union between the be altogether omitted. And I am very Church of England and the Protestant anxious to ask the serious attention of Episcopal Church of Ireland, and by the Committee and of the Government that union it is secured to the Protestant to this proposition, because I am aware Episcopal Church of Ireland that there that considerable misconception exists as should be identity of doctrine, of worthe character of the Motion. I cannot ship, of discipline, and of government but hope that—once a clear conception between the two Churches. I will not of its meaning has been obtained by the say of every hon. Gentleman—but it is Committee—we may find in it, if not true, I think, of the large majority of a complete, a very considerable solution this House—that they have no objection of many of the almost inextricable diffi- whatever to these objects

. Identity of culties with which this grave question is doctrine, discipline, worship, and gosurrounded. What I propose by omit- vernment among religious bodies are ting the 2nd clause is this,—that the public benefits; and, if those who are in union created by Act of Parliament be- possession and enjoyment of these blesstween the Churches of England and Ire- ings or privileges do not request to be land shall not be dissolved, but shall be deprived of them, I cannot suppose that maintained and preserved. Now, what there is any party of any importance—I is the character of that union ? It has should hardly think there is any indibeen referred to in the House very fre- vidual Member of the House—who would quently, and I think under a misappre- feel it his duty, or be anxious to deprive VOL. CXCV. (THIRD SERIES.]

[Committee-Clause 2.

2 K

them of these advantages. Identity of clause of the Act of Union we shall be doctrine, discipline, worship, and of go- interfering with the spiritual privileges of vernment, secured by one of the most a large body of our fellow-countrymen. solemn public acts of the country to the But there are other grave reasons which Protestant Episcopal Church of Ireland, lead me to press upon the Committee are the things of which, by this clause, the wise policy of leaving out the 2nd you propose to deprive that Church. clause of this Bill.

That clause proI

propose that we should continue them. poses to dissolve the union between the They are in themselves great bene- Church of England and the Protestant fits; they are believed by those who Episcopal Church of Ireland. The conpossess and enjoy them to be great sequences of that union I have already benefits; nobody requests to be deprived placed before the House, and therefore of them; and I cannot perceive that I will now merely repeat that that union it is the interest or desire of any Mem- secures to the latter Church identity of ber of this House to do so. The Com- doctrine, identity of worship, identity of

, mittee must clearly understand that, if discipline, and identity of government we preserve our faith inviolate with re- with the Church of England. Those are spect to these solemn engagements, if not privileges which ought to be grudged we determine not to invade the spiritual to the Protestant Episcopal Church of privileges of a great body of our fellow- Ireland by any body of Members in this citizens, we are at the same time agree- House, whatever may be their religious ing to nothing which will prevent the creed or their political opinions. Well

, Committee from carrying out, if they but how are identity of doctrine, of worthink fit, the policy of Her Majesty's ship, of discipline, and of government Government. If we omit this clause, secured to the Protestant Episcopal and by omitting it maintain the faith of Church in Ireland ? They are secured the country upon this solemn subject, to it by the supremacy of the Queen. It there is no reason whatever why you is by her authority and by her power should not proceed, if you think fit, to dis- that she vindicates the purity and uniestablish the Irish Church by depriving formity of doctrine, that she secures deits prelacy of all Parliamentary repre- corum of worship, that she enforces in sentation; to abrogate, if you think religious matters a salutary discipline, proper,

all its ecclesiastical courts; and and that she secures to the Church a to terminate, if you deem it expedient wise and temperate government. By to do so, all those distinctive features leaving untouched the supremacy of the which have been alleged in the course Queen you will maintain still between of this debate as reasons for supporting the civil power and the religious a tie the policy of the Government. I need which hon. Gentleman on this side of not impress upon the Committee the the House—and, indeed, I have reason great importance of this view, and that to believe many hon. Members on the it is a just one I gather from the other side of the House — would see speech of the right hon. Gentleman him- entirely severed with no inconsiderable self. I understood the right hon. Gen- pang. Well, then, if it is a matter, tleman to say—and I accept his interpre- as I believe it to be, of grave importtation—that by the Act of Union between ance that we should not unnecessarily the two countries that which is secured alter the Articles of Union, and ifto the Protestant Episcopal Church of which is also, in my opinion, a matter Ireland is identity of doctrine, of disci- of equal weight—we can, without ofpline, of worship, and of government fending anyone, without invading any with the Church in this country. I rights, political or religious, and, in cannot understand how it is thắt the order to accomplish ends the most saluright hon. Gentleman himself, knowing, tary, still maintain the connection be as he must, the danger of attempting to tween the civil power and religion, I alter the Act of Union, and that nothing think that is an additional reason why but a necessity of the first kind could you should hesitate before you reject the justify a statesman in recommending such proposition I have brought before the a course, does not feel that when the ne- Committee. But there is, I will not say cessity for that course is not clear that a graver, but a scarcely less important course should not be pursued, more es- reason why I think the Committee should pecially when by dealing with the 2nd agree to the suggestion which I am now

bringing forward. I understand the policy creation of the voluntary principle; the of Her Majesty's Government as laid disciplined organized clergy of the Rodown in this measure to be, in general man Catholic Church in Ireland are terms, the establishment of ecclesiastical not the creation of the voluntary prinequality. Last year we heard much of ciple—they are the creation of the sureligious equality, and I then felt it to preme will of a Sovereign Pontiff; they be my duty to maintain that religious are entirely independent of the voluntary equality was already enjoyed in Ireland principle. If you want to establish ecfully and completely. The phraseology clesiastical equality, if you want to put of the present year, however, is more the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland accurate and more precise, and instead and the Protestant Episcopalian Church of religious equality we hear of ecclesi- of Ireland upon the same footing of astical equality, and I am now about to advantage, why is the Protestant Episshow the Committee that, if they really copalian Church of Ireland to be dewish to attain ecclesiastical equality, they prived of the great advantage of having are bound to support me in this Mo- a supreme head as well as the Roman tion. In dealing with this question I Catholic Church ? I put the case with feel that great inconvenience arises from confidence to the consciences of every the continued confusion—if I may be per- candid Roman Catholic Member in this mitted to use such an expression—that House. I have some faith in the canstill to a large degree prevails in this did conscience even of my opponents, House with respect to the two principles when they are called upon to decide of establishment and endowment. Last questions like the present. I ask those night the hon. Member for North War- hon. Members who profess the Rowickshire (Mr. Newdegate) in his elabo- man Catholic religion why they should rate speech summed up his statements refuse to their fellow-countrymen the and arguments by impressing upon the great and undoubted advantages which House his conviction that the policy of they admit they derive from their Church Her Majesty's Government must end in being established under the supreme the establishment in Ireland of the Ro- will of a Sovereign Pontiff? I have man Catholic religion. Why, Sir, the shown that it is the supremacy of the Roman Catholic religion is already es- Queen that is to be destroyed-pertablished in Ireland—it is established in haps not intentionally — by the 2nd Ireland as fully and as completely as any clause of this Bill—a supremacy in matpower, human or divine, can establish it. ters in which I contend it is for the ad(“Oh, oh!”] It is true that the Roman vantage of her Protestant subjects, and Catholic religion in Ireland is not en- not of them alone, that she should exerdowed—that is a totally distinct

supremacy. The same power exists tion—but, I repeat, the Roman Catholic alike in the case of both religions, and religion is established in Ireland. Dur- is exercised in both cases according to ing the great debate upon the second the views of the respective supreme reading of this Bill, we were perpetually heads, in order to secure purity of doctold that the Protestant Church in Ire- trine, decorum of worship, salutary disland, which it is proposed to disestablish cipline, and wise government in their and to disendow by this Bill, need not respective Churches. I maintain that so lose heart—that it should take consola- long as His Holiness the Pope possesses tion and courage by looking at the posi- Rome—and I am bound to say that I tion of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire- see no reason to assume that there is land; that the Roman Catholic Church any prospect of his losing that capital in Ireland was in a very satisfactory which he has so long possessed — the position, in a very powerful position, Roman Catholic religion, in whatever and that its existence was the triumph country it may be found, is an estabof the voluntary principle in that coun- lished religion, and we shall be labourtry. That, however, is not the conclu- ing under the greatest fallacy if, in an sion at which I have arrived; it would attempt to arrive at a satisfactory settleseem to be an entire confusion of ideas ment of this great question, we regard that prompted such a statement. Car- the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland dinal Cullen is not the creation of the as a disestablished, or as a non-estabvoluntary principle; the powerful hier- lished Church. Therefore, unless you archy that pervades Ireland is not the accede to the suggestion which I am

2 K 2 [Committee-Clause 2.

ques- cise

about to make to-night, the first step which had been determined by the second you will take under your new system of reading of the Bill. The right hon. Genenforcing the establishment of ecclesias- tleman conceded that, as the Bill had tical equality will be to place the Dises- reached this stage, the Church of Iretablished Protestant Church of Ireland land was to be disestablished, and was, in rivalry with the Established Church at all events, to a certain extent, to be of Rome. Believing that there are great disendowed. He (the Attorney General) benefits in Establishments, I make this ventured to assert as a proposition of effort to call the serious attention of the law—and he should be surprised if any Committee to the situation in which they lawyers on the other side disputed itare now placed. I most earnestly hope that the disestablishment and disendowthat the Committee will support the ment of the Irish Church made this proposition which I have to make, and I clause absolutely necessary. The union appeal, not entirely without confidence, of the Churches of England and Ireto the First Minister himself not to op- land was the union of two established pose it. I appeal to the right hon. Gen- Churches. The 5th Article of the Act of tleman to consider this proposition with- Union enactedout passion and without prejudice. We

“That the Churches of England and Ireland, know that, in the management of these as now by law established, be united into one Proquestions, it is difficult to divest one-testant Episcopal Church, to be called the United self of the heat which naturally arises Church of England and Ireland.'” during their treatment; but I do most That was to say, the two established earnestly entreat the right hon. Gentle- Churches were to be united and if one man to accept the proposition I make. Church was disestablished it was quite It is a proposition that does not inter- clear there was no longer a union of two fere with his policy; the omission of established Churches. If the proposi. the 2nd clause will leave the Committee tion of disestablishment contained in the free to decide upon all the points which Bill were carried then virtually and by are affected by his policy. They may, I implication; so much of this Article of repeat it, if they choose, entirely despoil the Act of Union would in fact be rethe Irish Protestant Church; they may pealed; and surely it was desirable to do banish the Bishops from the House of directly that which must be done by imLords; they may close the ecclesiastical plication. It was either right or wrong eourts; they may terminate every cere- to disestablish the Irish Church ; if it mony, every privilege, and every prac- was wrong, the Bill ought not to have tice which hitherto they have held up to been read a second time; if it was right, odium, and alleged to be the cause of do not let them retreat from the consenational jealousy and discontent; but that quences of their decision, do not let they may do by maintaining the Union them be afraid of expressing the conclucomplete, by not disturbing the Articles sion which must follow. The remaining of one of the most solemn muniments of words of the Article werethe kingdom. They may permit the

“And that the doctrine, worship, discipline, Sovereign of England to maintain her and government of the said United Church shall salutary privilege of guarding the doc- be, and shall remain in full force for ever, as the trine, of vindicating the discipline, of same are now by law established for the Church regulating the worship of the Church, of England." and of securing for it a temperate and By what right or title did the Legislature equitable government-sources, in my force upon the Church certain forms of mind, of security to the State, and gua- doctrine, discipline, and government ? rantees for the progress and permanence By the right and title that the Church of civilization. I trust, therefore, the was established ; and, when the Church

1 Committee will adopt the suggestion I ceased to be established, Parliament had make, and that they will consent, with no right or title to prescribe for it its the support of the Ministry, to the omis- doctrine, discipline, or government. We sion of the 2nd clause.

did not prescribe doctrine, discipline, or THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, forms of government for our non-estabhe thought the Committee would have no lished and voluntary bodies ; indeed, the difficulty in coming to the conclusion that fact of their being voluntary was inconthe question raised by the right hon. sistent with Parliament doing so. What Gentleman substantially the question was meant by Establishment was that

.

was