We do insist on providing the weapons. I think it is high time that we got wise to what was going in. I can't argue too much against providing food for people that are starving, but when they are trying to fight a war at the same time, I question whether we ought to give them the means to continue fighting the war.

It is pretty obvious that they use any weapons that we give them and it is not going to be against the Communist Chinese, but will be against each other. I think that has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Whoever makes this decision if you want to pass it on to them that is the way I feel.

Chairman MORGAN. Mr. Gross?

Mr. GROSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

For the education of my friend, Mrs. Kelly, I might say that the Commodity Credit Corporation has become another faucet for foreign aid. It is difficult to find all the faucets through which foreign aid is dispensed. As massive as is this bill, we get only a few of them here today.

Mr. Bell, referring to page 2 of your statement, how can the 5-year authorization provide more efficient planning, assistance programs and greater self-help, and will you still have to go to the Appropriations Committee?

Mr. BELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. GROSS. Yes, sir; to what?

Mr. BELL. We would have to go each year to the Appropriations Committee under the bill as it is drafted.

Mr. GROSS. Why would you want to short-circuit this committee? Mr. BELL. We do not want to short-circuit this committee. As I indicated on page 3 of your statement, that is not our intention nor do we think it would be the effect. We do believe that a 5-year authorization, representing a decision by the Congress that for the next several years it is expected that a sensible and effective foreign aid program will be carried forward, will give us a better basis for laying out a program of activities which will be more efficient and more effective. It will also give the countries involved a more solid basis for understanding what they can anticipate if they accomplish the kinds of self-help activities

Mr. Gross. It is the same argument made a few years ago when Congress turned down the request for 5-year authorizations; is that not correct?

Mr. BELL. No, sir; Congress gave us 5-year authorization for development loans and a 4-year authorization for the Alliance for Progress. It did not give us long-term authorizations for other elements of the program. I think it was helpful just as I have indicated to have the long-term authorizations that we did, which are expiring now and, therefore, we think they should be extended, and others added.

Mr. GROSS. I want to see you come back to this committee each year, Mr. Bell. I want you to justify in every possible way what you are doing, because we have spewed out untold billions around the world and I don't think we have gotten much out of it.

I hope you will come back a sufficient number of times so we can develop some of these things. You apparently admit no failure. I find no one coming before this committee that admits any failure anywhere, with respect to this program.

If there is a failure, we have to dig it out of you. May I ask you this question: When India and Pakistan went to war last fall, didn't we suspend aid that had been planned for those countries?

Mr. BELL. Yes, we did.

Mr. GROSS. Then why shouldn't that result in a saving on the program for this fiscal year?

Mr. BELL. It is. I have already pointed out we will commit to those countries this year substantially less money than we anticipated when we were before the committee last year. That money is shown as carried forward and applied against next year's requirements as we had calculated them.

Mr. Gross. This leads to the question, What was the asking price on the part of those you described as serious-minded people around the world when they came to the Bureau of the Budget for more money for foreign aid? What was the amount they asked for?

Mr. BELL. I will have to check my instructions from the Bureau of the Budget on that. I am not sure I should go into that in open session, or maybe I am not allowed to go into it at all. I will check Mr. Schultze and see what I am allowed to say.

Mr. GROSS. You are not saying that this committee is not entitled to know the amount of the request by AID people around the world? Mr. BELL. Like every other agency head, Mr. Gross, I am here to defend and support the President's request. I think if I talk it over with the Budget Director he would authorize me to give you the figures you ask about.

(The information follows:)

Field requests and actual proposed program (fiscal year 1967 by region) [In millions of dollars]

Mr. GROSS. I hope you are also answerable to this committee, and I hope I don't hear anyone say that you are not answerable to this committee, you or your officials. I think this is the only way the public can get to the facts of this business.

My time is going to run out. First of all, I want to go to that page of your statement where you deal with expansion of the food program around the world, and speak of malnutrition.

Mr. BELL. That is page 9.

Mr. GROSS. Do you think you are going to have very much success in meeting that request when the President has cut back drastically on the school lunch program in this country? Would you think we ought to deprive the schoolchildren of this country, especially when we hear so much about poverty from the proponents of the Great Society?

Mr. BELL. AS I understand from Secretary Freeman, whom I asked about this-I am not the expert on it, obviously-the proposal is to enlarge the school lunch program in the United States, but to expect that those children whose parents can afford it would pay more than they do today for the food that the children receive at school. I repeat, this is not my program.

Mr. GROSS. I don't want to get into a discussion of the school lunch program in this country, but who is going to determine who can afford to buy lunches for their children? We are running into that every time we turn around in the poverty program. One formula used in one place and a different one in another. I don't think you are going to get very far until the issue of whether we will cut back on the school lunch program is solved in this country.

I am surprised the President of the United States in this legislation would insist on spending more money abroad for this purpose and cut back in the United States in order to do it. My mail on this issue is heavy and I want to thank you for making possible a very good answer to it.

I can now refer to the foreign aid program and tell them they are being discriminated against in favor of the foreigners.

Mr. BELL. I think that would be something of an overstatement. The children that we are talking about here are children of families who average less than $100 per year per capita. In the United States families average over $2,500 per year per capita.

We are talking about children who before the age of 5 may not get any protein-rich food whatever. This is just not comparable at all with the situation in the United States. I am not at all

Mr. GROSS. They can't all scale a coconut tree and get a coconut. Not everyone can pluck a banana and eat it. I don't think there is any reasonable comparability with a lot of the countries that we are supporting in this respect.

You singled out Brazil on page 6 of your statement. Can you give me an approximate figure how much we have put on Branco's nose? I understand in the last 18 months we put a billion dollars in one way or another into Brazil. Could this be right?

Mr. BELL. Not from AID.

Mr. GROSS. I am not talking about AID alone. I am talking about the whole ball of wax. Is there any way we can get

Mr. BELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. GROSS. Any way you can provide this committee with figures showing what this Government has put into the various countries? I am talking about the totals, soft loans, aid, and everything else. Mr. BELL. I will be glad to provide such figures.

(The information follows:)

U.S. ASSISTANCE TO BRAZIL DURING CASTELLO BRANCO ADMINISTRATION From April 1, 1964, to December 31, 1965, approximately $613 million in assistance to Brazil was authorized from U.S. Government sources. AID accounted for almost $400 million of this amount, and the food-for-peace program for some $150 million.

Of the remaining $63 million, military assistance accounted for $29 million, with the balance represented by loans from the Export-Import Bank and the Social Progress Trust Fund, and by program costs of the Peace Corps.

A new AID program loan signed on February 10, 1965, to finance the importation of essential commodities from the United States into Brazil adds $150 million, bringing the total to approximately $763 million.

Mr. GROSS. I am told that when the last $150 million went out to Dictator Branco, the Brazilian Government ordered 82 diesel locomotives from East Germany. Can this be possible?

Mr. BELL. I haven't heard of it, sir. I will investigate it and put something in the record on it.

Mr. GROSS. I wish you would.

(The information follows:)

BRAZILIAN PURCHASE OF EAST GERMAN LOCOMOTIVES

The AID program loan agreements with the Brazilian Government of December 1964 and February 1966, each for $150 million, finance only commodities of U.S. origin. They are, of course, not being used, directly or indirectly to finance East German locomotives.

Brazilian importers are purchasing locomotives from the United States and East Germany. A contract between the State of São Paulo and the East German Government for 76 diesel electric locomotives was announced on May 20, 1965, by the State of São Paulo. According to the announcement, the São Paulo State Railways issued a worldwide tender for 83 such locomotives in 1963 with the deadline for submission of bids, August 20, 1963. Bids were received from eight foreign firms and the first award was made to a Japanese group which was subsequently canceled after 6 months because of financing difficulties. A French group whose bid was second also failed to obtain the contract for similar reasons. In December 1954, the railways received a proposal from an East German Government agency to supply 76 locomotives worth $20 million.

Brazil's trade with the Soviet bloc is conducted on a barter basis, and Brazil has an interbank agreement with East Germany. Brazil customarily pays for imports with surplus commodities such as coffee and cocoa.

It is understood that the Central do Brasil Railway is planning to order $17 million worth of American diesel locomotives for delivery sometime this year. Mr. GROSS. Has my time expired?

Chairman MORGAN. The time of the gentleman from Iowa has expired.

Mr. Selden.

Mr. SELDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Bell, you were present yesterday when I pointed out to the Secretary of State that some of the 82 nations who were represented at the recent tricontinent conference in Havana are presently receiving aid under our aid program. Do you feel that aid could be cut off under section 620 (i) of the foreign aid bill to any nations which were represented there by members of their official government?

Mr. BELL. This obviously, Mr. Selden, is a question more for the Secretary to give you a responsible answer than I. I have looked at the question. I believe the legal issues that would be involved are: first, were these delegates in fact official representatives of their governments and, second, was the conference fomenting aggression in the sense that is meant in section 620 (i). I am advised there is considerable doubt on both of those issues as a matter of law.

My opinion is, sir, that we certainly do not appreciate whatever, in any way, even quasi-official representatives of countries with whom we are working participating in that kind of meeting. The question, therefore, it seems to me is whether or not 620 (i) applies, and it should be examined carefully by the lawyers. We should take other kinds of action which express our discontent with that sort of behavior.

Mr. SELDEN. The reason I asked that question is because I feel that if section 620 (i) does not apply, it should be tightened up so that it will cover similar future situations. In any event, I would hope you would look into this matter carefully.

Certainly those who attended the Havana conference and were members of their official governments, whether they were sent there officially or unofficially, were there with the knowledge and consent of their governments, and this was a meeting that advocated subversive aggression against all the nations of the Western Hemisphere, most of whom we are aiding.

If section 620 (i) does not cover a situation of that nature, I would urge you to give us suggestions through your legal staff as to how this section can be tightened up so it will cover similar situations in the future.

Mr. BELL. I will be glad to look into that.

Mr. SELDEN. One other question. I note you point out that about a third of the funds to be authorized for agricultural purposes are going to be used for fertilizer imports and for building fertilizer plants. I think this is commendable.

Has AID looked into the TVA's facilities that are located at Muscle Shoals, Ala.? If so, what is the possibility of using those facilities?

Mr. BELL. We have indeed worked quite closely with the TVA on fertilizer questions. We regard them as the leading authority in the United States on many aspects of fertilizer production and distribution and use. We have used their experts on a number of occasions, at our request, to examine the situation in a specific country-for example, Turkey, Korea-to see what it is the country will need, the content and nature of the fertilizer that would be appropriate for the growing conditions of that country.

We are in discussion with the TVA right now about a new type of concentrated and cheap combination urea phosphate fertilizer which they have developed to the laboratory stage which needs pilot plant stage development. I expect to be talking with the Bureau of the Budget and the White House and the TVA people on that shortly. Mr. SELDEN. Is there any possibility of utilizing those facilities at Muscle Shoals, Ala., for the production of the cheap fertilizer to which you referred as a result of funds appropriated in this bill?

Mr. BELL. I doubt that, Mr. Selden, for the reason that if my knowledge is correct, the TVA production facilities are almost entirely