the profits of the beef end, because that is the best showing you could make, because a showing upon the others would show a larger percentage of profits.

Mr. WELD. Well, it does.

Mr. ANDERSON. The Senate committee was two years getting a statement out of Armour & Co. as to what their profits on hogs were. Mr. CHAPLIN. We furnished the Federal Trade CommissionMr. ANDERSON. You have never furnished a statement to any committee.

Mr. CHAPLIN. On hogs?

Mr. ANDERSON. No.

Mr. CHAPLIN. Oh, yes; it is in this record-not in this particular hearing.

Mr. ANDERSON. Unless it has been put in in the last few days.

Mr. CHAPLIN. No; it was put in, I think, before the Senate committee. It is a copy of the document we furnished to the Federal Trade Commission. I will be glad to bring down copies of that.

Mr. WELD. It is in Part I of the Federal Trade Commission report, and was referred to in the hearings here yesterday or the day before. Mr. CHAPLIN. It shows the profits per head on cattle, sheep, calvės, and hogs separately for a number of years.

Mr. WELD. But even so, that does not justify the statement that this quarter of a cent a pound is inaccurate.

Mr. ANDERSON. I still say it is inaccurate.

Mr. WELD. Well, you can not prove that it is.

Mr. ANDERSON. If it is not inaccurate for any other reason, it is inaccurate for the reason that it does not include your stock dividends.

Mr. WELD. I thought we explained that situation yesterday, and I thought you understood that the dividend does not represent a profit earned during the year, and that all those profits have been reported in previous years that the stock dividends represent.

Mr. CHAPLIN. The stock dividend is merely a disposition of a profit that has been reported and put in the surplus.

Mr. WELD. I am almost tempted to say that you do not show a particularly good grasp of financial operations when you speak of that statement of stock dividends not being included in that profit. Mr. ANDERSON. I am not particularly interested in your views of what my grasp of financial operations is.

Mr. WELD. I am not sure but what that is an important point, inasmuch as you pose as an authority on these things in giving public statements about our profits.

Mr. ANDERSON. I do not pose as an authority on them at all; I am trying to get information out of you which I do not seem to be able to get.

Mr. WELD. What information do you want that you can not get? Mr. ANDERSON. Well, I would like to have you put in the record, if you will do it, a comparative statement showing both costs and profits on hogs, cattle, and sheep for 1904 and for 1918.

Mr. WELD. Can we furnish that, Mr. Chaplin, back as far as 1904? Mr. CHAPLIN. I think so; we can at least try.

Mr. WELD. 1918 or 1919?

Mr. ANDERSON. 1918.

Mr. WELD. A comparative statement on the cost and profit on hogs, cattle, and sheep for 1904 and 1918? We will furnish you those; we have not got them here, however.

Mr. LEE. Why not ask for 1919 too, Mr. Anderson?

Mr. ANDERSON. I would also like to have you furnish a statement showing your contributions to the Institute of American Meat Packers since its organization, and so far as you have the figures, the contributions of others of the Big Five to the American Institute. I should also like to have you furnish, so far as you can, information as to the amount of money spent in 1919 by the others of the Big Five for advertising.

Mr. WELD. I do not think we will attempt to do that, Mr. Ander

son.

Mr. CHAPLIN. We will furnish ours.

Mr. WELD. We will furnish Swift & Co.'s; we will not furnish the other packers'.

Mr. ANDERSON. I should also like to have a statement of any of the profits of any company included in your statement of the profits in 1918 or 1917 which is not included in your statement for 1919.

Mr. CHAPLIN. We have no access to their books, Mr. Anderson.

Mr. ANDERSON. Then I will ask you to state separately the profits of any company included in your 1917 or 1918 figures which are not included in your 1919 figures.

Mr. WELD. That is, the profits of that year?

Mr. ANDERSON. Of that year.

Mr. WELD. Can we do that? I guess we can.
Mr. CHAPLIN. I think so.

Mr. WELD. Is there anything else?

Mr. ANDERSON. Yes. In connection with your explanation of the failure of pork prices to drop along with other prices during the latter part of 1919, I should like to have you make a statement showing the amount of fresh pork, fresh hams, and fresh bacon that went into pickle or went into cure or cold storage during the months of August, September, October, November, and December, 1919.

Mr. WELD. For Swift & Co.? Of course, we may be permitted to add some figures to that, if we should want to? Because if it should. come out so many hundred thousand pounds, some people might interpret that as a tremendous amount

Mr. ANDERSON (interposing). I should be very glad also to have you incorporate in that statement comparative figures for 1918. If you care to do that I should think that would be a fair thing to do., Mr. WELD. Is there anything else?

Mr. ANDERSON. I do not think of anything right now; if I do I will let you know later.

Mr. WELD. We would have been glad to furnish you some of those figures before you made some of these public statements before the committee, Mr. Anderson.

. Mr. ANDERSON. I repeat again. When I asked you for figures, or asked Mr. Swift, in response to a general invitation which he sent out to everybody to ask for information, I asked for information of this sort and I was referred to your Year Book and your analysis, or criticism of the Federal Trade Commission's report, and in view of that fact I felt justified in using the figures which I had, that I could

get from public reports, and that I could gather from your public

statements.

Mr. WELD. You do not deny that the material we have sent you furnished the information that you asked for, do you?

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, I do not recall at this moment the exact request that I made, but it is my impression that the information I got did not cover the information I asked for. I think I have the correspondence around somewhere.

Mr. MARSH. May I ask a question on that now? Have you the figures for all the slaughtering and meat-packing establishments for 1919? That is not out yet, I assume?

Mr. WELD. What do you mean? The figures for the slaughtering

Mr. MARSH (interposing). Such as you have given for 1914. Mr. WELD. The census? Oh, no; they will not be ready for two or three years yet.

Mr. MARSH. I thought probably that was the case. I understood you to say that as to the several hundred slaughtering plants which did less than a million dollars volume of business a year; you were in constant competition with them.

Mr. WELD. I say that gives a better idea of the number and size of the plants with which we are in constant competition.

Mr. MARSH. Well, now, do you mean to say that any large number of those plants ship to all the towns where you sell?

Mr. WELD. No; but we sell in every town where they are located. Mr. MARSH. But that was not the question.

Mr. WELD. I said no; but we do sell in competition with them in their own towns and in the towns where they sell.

Mr. MARSH. Well, I will take up the "no" part of your answer, and not the "but," with your permission. In how many towns where they sell do you sell?

Mr. WELD. Well, I suppose there is hardly a town in the country where there is not somebody else, one or two large packers and possibly one or two small packers and local butchers, selling. We have competition in practically every place that we sell in one form or another.

Mr. MARSH. Well, earlier this morning you made this statement, that there were small slaughtering places in towns, or there would be if your prices were too high. Now, I can make no deduction from that but that you say your prices are too high in the towns where you have no competition.

Mr. WELD. I mean this, that if we artificially forced up the price in selling to a place out in Minnesota or out in Kansas or out in Oklahoma there would be local slaughtering-local meat shops would slaughter their own stuff. They do that now to a very large extent, but they would do it more if in any way the price were forced up. Mr. MARSH. Of course, you know what Standard Oil has done depressed prices where they were in competition and raised them where they were not?

Mr. WELD. I believe that was the evidence some years ago against the Standard Oil, but there has been no such evidence against the packing industry, because we do not do it.

Mr. MARSH. I do not say you do, and therefore I do not see why you protest your innocence.

Mr. WELD. Because there is that insinuation in everything you

say.

Mr. MARSH. Unfortunately, I get some information from you which confirms some of the suspicions which are prevalent.

Mr. WELD. No, sir; you do not get any information from me which confirms any suspicions.

Mr. MARSH. But is there any number of towns, 100, 5,000, or any number, in which Swift & Co. sell exclusively directly or through your refrigerator cars on a route?

Mr. WELD. Where Swift & Co. sells exclusively?

Mr. MARSH. Yes; unless there is an occasional man sends in a beef to his retired family, his father and mother in town-that is where Swift & Co. have substantially no competition.

Mr. WELD. I do not believe there is a town where that is true, where there is no competition. Would you think so, Mr. Chaplin? Mr. CHAPLIN. We meet competition everywhere we sell; practically in every railroad town in the United States.

Mr. MARSH. It is not the competition of big concerns. The testimony came out here that they had to have these refrigerator cars in order to do a wide-spread business. That is correct, is it not?

Mr. CHAPLIN. It is the competition of the large packers and the small packers and the local butchers and the meat that is killed on the farm. We have to go against all of it. If a town is supplied by locally-killed stuff they will not buy from us, and we have to sell our meat some place else.

Mr. MARSH. In about how many towns do you sell?

Mr. CHAPLIN. I do not know; I suppose 30,000 or 40,000. I do not know how many.

Mr. WILSON. I feel very much enlightened by that colloquy.
The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Professor Weld.

Mr. WELD. To summarize what I have just said, Mr. Anderson's claim that we have been spreading misinformation was based on these three points: That 45 per cent was not accurate; that the quarter of a cent was not accurate; and finally, that the benefits of centralization and large size of the packing industry have not been · realized.

On that third point I have shown you that the correct figures show that the benefits have been realized and the figures used by Mr. Anderson to prove the contrary were inaccurate and not comparable.

Mr. ANDERSON. You do not deny that the figures I put in were put in just as they are in the public records and just as they are in your yearbook?

Mr. WELD. I say they are not comparable figures. I do not say you did anything intentionally at all, and I do not wonder that you made that mistake with regard to the figures in the Bureau of Corporations report, but I do say that the result is that you put in figures there that are not comparable and make an inaccurate comparison, and therefore we have inaccurate results and inaccurate. conclusions.

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, it still is true that your costs in 1919 were around two and a half times as much as they were in 1904. Mr. WELD. Instead of four times, as you indicated.

Mr. ANDERSON. And according to the information furnished by Armour & Co., his costs were more than three and one-half times as much.

Mr. WELD. I do not think it is worth while to discuss that any more. We disposed of that very thoroughly yesterday, Mr. Anderson. I am just summing up these points. There is no possible way you can defend the accuracy of that table and the conclusions drawn therefrom.

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, right on that point, the trouble with you people all the time is if I may be permitted to say so that you content yourselves with taking figures which somebody else works out of some public record, and out of your superior knowledge of the business you undertake to show where these figures are wrong, but are very careful not to produce any figures yourselves on the same subject.

Mr. WELD. We are careful to produce the figures you ask for. We have produced more figures than probably any corporation in the country. We produce the figures and make them just as accurate as we know how.

On this general question of profits I do not know just what more to say. I would like to have the table of our profits inserted in the record again in connection with my testimony-the table you had inserted before. Do you think there would be any objection to that? It is only one page, and I had planned to put it in with my testimony. It is on page 41 of Part I of the hearings.

Mr. ANDERSON. I have no objection to its going in, but if it does go in I will ask to have inserted the table prepared by the Federal Trade Commission covering the same proposition.

(The tabulations referred to are here printed in full, as follows:)