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point, as a producer of live stock. Would it not make it easier for you to sell your stuff locally if the small packing plants had the same refrigerator-car facilities that the big ones have?

Mr. SANSOM. I am going to answer you that by telling you this. If you are familiar with the markets, you will find out that the people buy their cattle in Fort Worth. That is 300 miles away, and sometimes Houston, which is still a little more. The reason for that is that they come to market where this cattle is concentrated and they get them out of the market weighed. Most people want more for their stuff in the country. Besides, they want to buy this stuff by weight, and if they go to the country they have to "hit them off "; they do not know what they will weigh. They can not weigh them on the ranches and farms; they have no scales in that country. The Houston packing house buys them and ships the meat west two or three hundred miles. They buy them in the country and ship the cattle there and the seller has to take the weights he gets down there, weighed off the cars without a fill of any kind; the people do not like that much. They would rather go to market and load their cattle and weigh them and get them watered and fed.

Mr. MARSH. That is an interesting statement, but doesn't answer my question.

Mr. SANSOM. Did you ever try to buy corn in the country?
Mr. MARSH. No, sir; but I have cultivated corn.

Mr. SANSOM. If you ever tried to buy corn around a feed lot where they were feeding cattle you would know about the price. They want more for corn around a feed lot than you can buy corn for in town. Mr. MARSH. That does not answer my question.

Mr. SANSOM. I shall try to answer any question I can; I shall be glad to do so.

Mr. MARSH. Will the stenographer please read the question? (The stenographer read as follows:)

Mr. MARSH. No one suggests that these refrigerator cars should lie around on the tracks. What I am trying to do is to get your viewpoint as a producer of live stock, would it not make it easier for you to sell your stuff locally if the small packing plants had the same refrigerator-car facilities that the big ones have?

Mr. SANSOM. I think I might answer that question by saying that if I was doing any considerable business, enough to make a market for my cattle, that. I might save some of the freight, maybe, by being able to sell them right there.

Mr. WELD. I think Mr. Marsh wants to ascertain whether you do not think that a small packer ought to have refrigerator cars available if he needs them.

Mr. SANSOM. I think that a small packer ought to have every advantage that a big one has; I think he should have every advantage of the law. I do not believe that the small packer has any more right to go and ask the big packer to turn over his packing plant or his refrigerator cars to him to make money than a man who has no farm at all has to come to me and ask me to cut off 640 acres or 100 acres of land and let him use it. I can not conceive of any difference in those two propositions. So far as the law, the public utilities, and everything of that kind is concerned, there is no man on earth stronger than I am for every man to have his equal rights

in this country. I do abhor and detest the proposition of any concern by being big or otherwise getting anything-that is, a public utility for less money than the small man can get it for.

Mr. MARSH. Do you think that the railroads should be required to supply refrigerator cars and put all the packers, big and small, on the same basis in the use of the cars?

Mr. SANSOM. I would say in answer that the railroads have a lot of things that they are not going to be able to do for years to come. I do not believe that the railroads ought to invest in refrigerator cars that there is no demand for.

Mr. MARSH. Nobody suggested that. You have just stated that it would be better for the small packer, if he had refrigerator car service on the same basis as the big packer, but they could not afford and ought not to be asked to rent a lot of cars themselves; why should not the railroads buy them?

Mr. SANSOM. If he does not get the cars-I have heard him make no complaint that he does not, but if he does not, he should build one or two cars for his own use, and when he gets a little more money he can build another one. The railroads can not be expected to furnish this equipment and let it lie idle. There are times when Mr. Taft's condition is such when he does not ship any meat at all for several weeks, because the large packer and probably others are supplying the meat cheaper. So far as the small packer is concerned, of course, he has his own ranch and he can do pretty nearly as he

wants.

Mr. MARSH. Do you remember the personnel of this committee of five of which you spoke?

Mr. SANSOM. I can tell you who the heads of the departments were. You want to know who is actually in the department, is that the idea?

Mr. MARSH. Who voted on this legislation.

Mr. SANSOM. I would say that Mr. Cotton represented the Food Administration—well, I am not going to be able to call off their names. There was a gentleman who represented the Tariff Commission.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Mr. Murdock?

Mr. SANSOM. No, sir.

Mr. ANDERSON. He is on the Federal Trade Commission.

Mr. BURKE. Mr. Page?

Mr. SANSOM. Yes, sir; Mr. Page, of the Tariff Commission. On the Agricultural Department Gov. Stuart and myself and one Mr. Hall, whom you probably know, at that time was named. The Federal Trade Commission had from seven to nine men there all the time. They had the largest number. The labor commission had from three to five, and I guess I better not say this, but a man came in when we were about half through and said he was a representative of labor; that Mr. Gompers sent him there. He was admitted and sat with us.

Mr. MARSH. Do you remember that Mr. Hall, whom you have referred to, reported that the packers' ownership of the stockyards bad? What do you think of the railroads owning the

was very

stockyards?

Mr. SANSOM. I think it would be a very riduiculous proposition, if you will excuse that kind of an answer. For instance, take the stockyards at Chicago, they are worth a billion dollars and I expect more; I may be wrong. They are worth more than a lot of the railroads are worth. The stockyards are not owned by the packers there and neither in Kansas City.

Mr. MARSH. They are very largely controlled by the packers?

Mr. SANSOM. No; hardly. They have never been able to control them in any shape at all. Mr. Niles, from Boston, owns more than one-third of the stock of the Kansas City Stockyards, which investment amounts to about $4,000,000.

Mr. MARSH. Do you think that the producers are quite satisfied with the treatment which they have received from the stockyards? Mr. SANSOM. Why, sure. I have been actually there. We never went to the stockyards people for anything that they did not do it. I might say that there is one feature of this matter that ought to be regulated by every State, a State law. In some places they have charged more than they ought to for feed, but you can not come here to Congress to regulate a proposition like that. They have the authority down in Kansas City. It is not done in our yards, because there has never been enough complaint to bring it about, yet I think it would be all right to do it. I would be in favor of fixing the charges for feed. So far as the facilities are concerned they have been kept up well. Who are you going to get to take them over? You will never get them taken over by the railroads, except by a

failed line.

Mr. ANDERSON. Are you a producer?

Mr. SANSOM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSON. Do you own any stock in any commission company?

Mr. SANSOM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSON. Which one?

Mr. SANSOM. The Cassidy Southwestern.

Mr. ANDERSON. Where are they doing business?

Mr. SANSOM. Fort Worth, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, and St. Louis. I may say, however, that I am not actively with the company and have not been for more than two years and only own a very small amount of stock at this time. I used to control it in stock and was president and general manager, and pretty nearly the "whole cheese." I only own a small amount of stock to-day and have the honor of being the president of the board. That is, when they retire a fellow you find him as chairman of the board. A retired proposition; that is what I am, without any active work to do with it to amount to anything whatever. That has been nearly three years.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very grateful to you.

Mr. SANSOM.I am very much obliged to you. You have let me down lighter than I thought you would. Mr. Lasater told you about me. There is as much truth in that as in any other statement he made. I will leave that to you. There are many people who can tell you about him. He expected that I was going to say something that did not agree with him.

Mr. ANDERSON. Before Mr. Weld goes on, I should like to file for the record a statement showing the exports of hog products from the United States by months, during the years ending Decem ber, 1918 and 1919, and also a statement showing the receipts of hogs at Chicago, Kansas City, Omaha, St. Louis, St. Joseph, Sioux City, and St. Paul for 1918 and 1919, during the same periods. I do not offer this as any refutation of the explanation of the reasons for the hog prices going down when the pork-loin price went up, but merely as a small contribution to the sum total of knowledge on that subject.

This table shows in a general way that there was no substantial decrease in the exports of bacon until December, 1919, and that there were substantial decreases in the exportation of hams and shoulders in the months of October, November, and December, 1919, as compared with 1918. The exportations of neutral lard, canned pork, and fresh pork, I think, all increased as compared with 1918. One of the most remarkable things about this statement is that there was a very great increase in the exportation of fresh pork in those months.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to have that incorporated in the record?

Mr. ANDERSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be so ordered. (The statements submitted by Mr. Anderson follow :)

Exports of hog products from the United States, by months, during the years ending December, 1918 and 1919

Bacon.

Hams and shoulders, cured.

Lard.

Neutrallard.

Pork, canned.

Pork, fresh.

Pork, pickled.

Months.

Pounds.

Dollars.

Pounds. Dollars.

Pounds.

Dollars.

Pounds. Dollars. Pounds. Dollars. Pounds. Dollars. Pounds.

Dollars.

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45, 816, 637 36, 190, 919 25, 430, 106 20,127,671 38, 939, 568 537, 213, 041

12, 704, 809

51,920, 658

10, 273, 907

33, 267, 902

7,330, 468

46, 025, 020

5,938, 561 11,691,066

27, 285, 088

37,724, 398

[blocks in formation]

1, 190, 297, 494 373,913, 227 596, 795, 663

March.

April.

May.

June

July

August.

September. October.

November

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[blocks in formation]

54, 846, 433 49, 283, 053 85,712, 426 109, 569, 968 49,099, 877 96, 854, 552 47, 452, 834 40, 147, 727 18, 209, 239 13, 090, 972 16,840, 285 15,688, 297

189, 428, 837,760, 901, 611 237, 983, 449 22, 957, 137 7,725, 983 5, 791, 706 2, 422, 364 26, 776, 978 8, 347, 557 34, 113, 875 8,632,518

[blocks in formation]

410, 467

577, 100 451,614

144, 933, 151 6,307, 164 1,612, 7805, 267, 342 1,776, 392 11, 632, 635 2,907, 894 36, 671, 660 8, 535, 017

34,456

77,604

18, 165

2,783, 273

152, 810

50, 473

14,988 2,025, 778

[blocks in formation]
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