But you see, with revenue sharing we can't really tell what resources are going to get to the elderly because that will depend on the local mayor or Governor. However, with the legislation which is before us this morning, we are sure that it is going to go to the senior citizens; we are sure that it is going to go to the elderly. [Applause.]

We are not going to deem it an option of the Government. We are targeting that in on the elderly and we are going to be sure of it. By the way, the programs that are included here are the most local programs you could possibly imagine. You couldn't get anything any more local.

It just seems to me that we have a responsibility which has not been met in terms of assuring employment and service opportunities to the elderly. And as one who has tried to develop a targeted program to meet a targeted need, it distresses me quite frankly to find this opposition to it. Particularly when you admit that if we go the administration route, you are unable to give any solid assurances to the elderly workers that we are going to get the job done.

And that is just one man's view on that. I know we have a disagreement on it.

Senator EAGLETON. That is two men's views on it.
Senator KENNEDY. I thank you.

Can you tell me how many older Americans you estimate dropped out of the labor force over a period of let's take-recent years. I don't know if you have the figures now for the last 2 or 3 years. You might provide it for the record in terms of the last 5 or 8 years.

Mr. FASSER. I don't have those figures, Senator, but I would be glad to provide it.

Senator KENNEDY. Can you? Because you see, I think when we asked you about the number of people unemployed and you have one of four.

I don't really feel that is an accurate estimation of the total number of elderly people who are unemployed. I think it would be important to our understanding of the problem to truly evaluate the number of elderly who are not even counted in the total labor force.

Do your associates have any figures or estimates?

Mr. RAVIN. There has been a great variety of figures. Reports of the Senate's Special Committee on Aging, for example, the Developments on Aging-1970, the hearings on the economics of aging have had estimates from such experts as Dr. Harold Sheppard and Dorothy McCamman. It is very difficult to stay what is the most accurate estimate. It depends on your operational definition-particularly after age 65 when a man may be presumed to be retired. Would he come back if he were offered a job? In what kind of job market? It is a very difficult question to answer, although I think no one would question the fact that a fair number of workers drop out because they can't find employment.

Senator KENNEDY. What were the figures that were provided in terms of

Mr. RAVIN. They ranged from less than 1 million to more than 5 million. It seems to me that the latter figure is far too large.

Commissioner MARTIN. Senator, the work force participation figures fall very rapidly, of course, after age 65 is reached. The trend has been steadily downward. Seven out of 10 men over 65 were in the labor

m

force at the turn of the century. Now that is down to about 25 percent of men over 65 who are still in the labor force. This is why we are particularly interested in the thrust of the proposal which the administration will soon send to Congress. We are particularly interested in seeing it presented, and in seeing the Congress act on it, because we see an opportunity there to expand the service role of older people.

Compensation can be a part of it, as it is in the foster grandparent program, but we believe that the service role can be greatly expanded and that oportunities of all kinds can be made available to our older population, not only in health, welfare, and related settings, but in community service settings as well. We know we have the older people who want to serve in these ways, because we have four times more applications that we have service opportunities at the present time. So, we think this is an important initiative and one which can greatly increase the opportunities to provide services which the older people want to provide, and which are needed in the communities.

Senator KENNEDY. That sounds like the best endorsement of S. 555 I have heard.

Commissioner MARTIN. It is an endorsement of the forthcoming administration proposal which is somewhat similar, Senator, but it isn't an endorsement of S. 555.

Senator KENNEDY. We won't hold you to that, Commissioner.

Commissioner MARTIN. It is similar but different. It emphasizes the service role. It emphasizes the volunteer aspects of it, the satisfactions to the individual in service, the opportunities for personal satisfaction. While the compensation or the stipend has importance in boosting morale and in boosting income somewhat, that really is for many of these people not the important thing. The important thing is to continue to be useful.

Senator KENNEDY. You described my bill just beautifully. We ought to get together.

I think we have seen, Mr. Secretary, these various figures talked about and I think we ought to try and get some further information. Mr. FASSER. We will be glad to provide any information we can along those lines.

(The following information was subsequently supplied for the record :)

UNEMPLOYED PERSONS 45 YEARS OF AGE AND OVER

Based on the Current Population Survey for the second quarter of 1971, BLS estimates, there were 275,000 persons 45 years of age and over who were not employed and wanted a job but were not looking for one because they thought they could not find one. Of these 90,000 were persons 45 to 55 years old, 42,000 were 55 to 59, and 143,000 were 60 plus.

The persons included in these figures might have "dropped out" of the labor force a month ago or several years ago. The estimate necessarily is based on responses at a given time.

Senator KENNEDY. I want to thank you very much for coming.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator EAGLETON. Thank you, Senator Kennedy.

Commissioner Martin, in your prepared testimony, you make this

statement:

We believe, however, that the service orientation in the upcoming administration proposal is preferable to the employment orientation in the bills before you.

And in part you were discussing that with Senator Kennedy. You do see in S. 555 and similar bills an employment orientation and you do see in Operation Mainstream an employment orientation that in your judgment distinguishes it from a program such as Foster Grandparents?

Commissioner MARTIN. That is correct.

Senator EAGLETON. You don't see them as being identical?
Commissioner MARTIN. No, sir. But-

Senator EAGLETON. And you see them as pursuing the same goal but on separate and different avenues?

Commissioner MARTIN. I think of S. 555 as aiming far more perhaps, at people who are actually a part of the regular labor force. I think of the foster grandparents program, if expanded, as dealing primarily with people who may not be in the labor force at all. They are low income but they are in many cases as old as 80 or 90. We have one or two people in that program who are 90 and, of course, it is a program that is no longer administered by the Administration on Aging. It has been transferred to the ACTION Agency. But I have had numerous conversations with Mr. Blatchford with regard to what emphasis is to be put on older people in the ACTION Agency, and I have had repeated assurances from him that he regards this as of major importance, not minor, and the evidence of that is in the fact that the new ACTION Agency has a division which is simply designated as Older American Services; it has not been homogenized into the general structure. It will have separate identity, and the programs it is operating will be given separate attention.

Senator KENNEDY. They are directing it?

Commissioner MARTIN. For that program, yes. The director of the Older Americans portion of it is the man who was working for me before these programs were transferred, Mr. John Keller, who is here this morning and who has done a wonderful job not only in getting the foster grandparents program going but in getting the retired senior volunteer program going.

Senator KENNEDY. Is Mr. Keller here?

Commissioner MARTIN. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY. Would the Senator let me ask a question?

Senator EAGLETON. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY. Do you have a staff?

Mr. KELLER. Yes; we do.

Senator EAGLETON. Would you please give your full name and title for the record?

STATEMENT OF JOHN B. KELLER, DIRECTOR, OLDER AMERICANS PROGRAMS, ACTION

Mr. KELLER. Yes, sir. My name is John Keller and I am head of the older Americans program in ACTION.

In regard to your question, we do have authority at this time within ACTION to proceed with recruiting and hiring 33 staff within ACTION to serve older Americans programs. Currently we have only seven staff positions filled.

The reason for that is that in the transfer from HEW to ACTION there were no transfer of staff from the regional office to the ACTION

regional office. We will soon be recruiting staff to fill the vacancies in those regional offices.

We will have 13 in the central office and 20 positions in the regional offices.

Senator KENNEDY. This is a new kind of a program that you are heading in terms of ACTION?

Mr. KELLER. No, sir.

Senator KENNEDY. You would be coordinating the foster grandparents program

Mr. KELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator KENNEDY. Does this mean a corresponding reduction in terms of your personnel?

Commissioner MARTIN. Yes, Senator. The seven personnel who were assigned to the program in AOA have been transferred to ACTION.

Senator KENNEDY. How many does that leave you?

Commissioner MARTIN. That will be increased to 13 there. It leaves us with 55.

Senator KENNEDY. Good. When do you expect to have them filled? Mr. KELLER. We expect-we are developing the job descriptions now and will be recruiting within the next month.

Senator KENNEDY. Good. Can you either submit to us or let us know what those programs are in terms of the elderly at the appropriate time?

Mr. KELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator KENNEDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(The information referred to and subsequently supplied follows:)

FOSTER GRANDPARENT PROGRAM

The purpose of the Foster Grandparent Program is to provide opportunities for low-income persons age 60 and over to contribute to their community in retirement by providing continuous person-to-person service to needy children in health, education, welfare and related settings while being supported by a nominal stipend and enjoying the self-respect and satisfaction that comes from being needed and serving others.

The Director of ACTION is authorized to make grants to public or nonprofit private agencies to pay not more than 90 percent of the cost of development and operation of foster grandparent projects designed to carry out the purpose as defined above. There are 67 projects operating in 40 states and Puerto Rico. During fiscal year 1971, there were 4,400 foster grandparents serving 8,800 children on any given day in approximately 190 institutions. During a year approximately 5,600 different foster grandparents serve as many as 24,000 children in these settings. The range of financial assistance is $69,000 to $356,000 with the average grant at $145,000.

Foster grandparents serve four hours a day, five days a week and receive a stipend of $1.60 per hour; they are reimbursed for their transportation cost and, where possible, are provided a nutritious meal daily. Each foster grandparent receives a physical examination yearly and all foster grandparents are covered by accident insurance. At least eighty-one percent of the total program budget (Federal and Non-Federal) is spent as direct benefits to the foster grandparents. Indirect benefits to the foster grandparents include orientation, in-service training, and continuing on-the-job supervision. Through the professional staff of each individual program, foster grandparents receive counseling on personal matters and information regarding benefits available through medicare, social security, legal aid and other community and Federal programs.

Seventy-three percent of the foster grandparents serve mentally retarded children. In one project for retarded children, seven children achieved the level of functioning that enabled them to enter Head Start classes; four were admitted to special education classes; one boy thought to be retarded was enrolled in summer Head Start and then registered for a regular classroom progra Foster grandparents also serve in institutions for the emotionally disturbed, for the dependent and neglected, for the mentally ill, for the physically handicapped; in pediatric hospitals; in day care, head start, and elementary classrooms; in correctional institutions; and, mental health clinics. National authorities on child care have commented on the excellence of the Foster Grandparent Program. Dr. Maria Piers, dean of the Erikson Institute for Early Childhood Education and co-author with Dr. Robert Coles of the book Wages of Neglect, has stated: "As a preventive program, Foster Grandparent is the best thing known to combat the pernicious influence of neglect. Children who are ignored, cut off from adult contact and love can face a total deterioration of the intellect with life-long crippling effects. Foster grandparents give the children the warm, loving contact with adults that is so necessary to their growth and development. I have seen the positive results of this program. Every institution or agency caring for children could benefit from the work of a foster grandparent in every child care unit."