million acres of land were operated under irrigation while I was there we have got to consider the value of water to the community, because we are tied in with the community, so that we can't prosper unless they do. Now, if it is advantageous to the area to irrigate the Rathdrum Prairie and irrigate it from Lake Coeur d'Alene, then what we have got to do is to be willing to work out a fair and reasonable deal, so that it can be done; because, if we don't we are only hurting ourselves as well as other people. Now, as to where Rathdrum Prairie should be irrigated, Mr. Congressman, I just don't have any ideas. Mr. WHITE. We are not entering into any controversy; we simply are trying to get basic facts here upon which to make our plans and recommendations to the Congress. What we want to determine is what this water is actually going to cost the water users, and also what you people will lose by reducing the production of your plants through the period when it would be needed to keep those plants up to capacity production. Mr. ROBINSON. Well, of course Mr. WHITE. There is quite a volume-do you know about how many acre-feet-second-feet-it is proposed to use to irrigate 40,000 acres of land? Mr. ROBINSON. Well, they are talking about a diversion of 4 acrefeet. However— Mr. WHITE. Four acre-feet on 40,000 acres? Mr. ROBINSON. Four acre-feet per acre. Mr. WHITE. Per acre. And that would be quite a volume of water. Mr. ROBINSON. But they claim that when you do reduce that by run-off, it probably amounts to 130,000 acre-feet per season. The growing season is rather short in this area. Then you have to take into consideration that not all of that comes when we could use it anyway. Because they will start irrigating probably the 15th of May, and the irrigation water that is taken out during May and June, probably up to the 15th of July, doesn't affect us at all. Mr. WHITE. There would be no charge for that water? Mr. ROBINSON. All we want back is what we lose, and if we don't lose any kilowatt-hours, we don't want anything. Almost every year during that period of time, there is floodwater coming over the dam which doesn't last long enough that it justifies our putting it in the generating machine to take advantage of the use of it for the short time that it is floodwater. So that water would have no charge to the district. Then you have to take into consideration what the return flow is from that water that is diverted out to the land, until it drops back down into the normal channels and back into the river. Now, we know all of it won't come back. There is evaporation. We don't know just exactly what happens under ground in this territory. We are positive that it couldn't get back to the Post Falls plant. There is a lot of it couldn't get back to the Up-River and Monroe plants. But whatever is going to return probably would get back into the river above Nine Mile, Little Falls, and Long Lake. They are the three big plants of the six. Now, that is going to be the rub, if there is any. We have our rule-of-thumb method of determining what the return flow is. The Bureau of Reclamation's figures, I think, are somewhat considerably higher than ours, but I have been dealing with the Bureau of Reclamation for some 20 years now, and I don't think we would have any trouble getting together on a fair settlement of return flow. That is, the only question that is involved really in this situation up here is, What is your return flow? And of course, we don't want any more than Mr. WHITE. Now, in making your transaction with the Government as to what the water is worth in firm power to be exchanged, would the run-off be a factor in your calculations; would that be an item? Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, yes. Mr. WHITE. Would that be used at all? Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, if water is diverted and put out on that 40,000 acres of land, it comes back into the river-into the head of one of our generating plants again, then we shouldn't charge them for that water, because if it comes back, we get the use of it. Mr. WHITE. I think you and I are in agreement that they shouldn't be charged, but it is just a question of what will be done-that is what we are interested in. Mr. ROBINSON. That is one thing that has to be determined. Mr. WHITE. Worked out? Mr. ROBINSON. Yes; that is right, sir. Mr. WHITE. Am I misinformed, then? It was my understanding that the way the water rights exist now, and are presently operated, that no one was permitted below Post Falls to put a dam in the river. I couldn't go up there, if I had a little patch alongside of the river bank, and wanted to raise water, even in high-water time--I wouldn't be permitted even to put a pump in and take water from the river? Am I misinformed on that? Mr. ROBINSON. Everybody has their legal diversion of water. That is, the water has been filed on over the years. Mr. WHITE. Subject to superior water rights. Mr. ROBINSON. Subject to superior water rights. Now, whether there is any left, I don't know. Mr. WHITE. You have just stated to the committee that there is a very large volume going down the river that is unused from early spring until along about the 15th of July. Mr. ROBINSON. That is right, sir. Mr. WHITE. Could I go out here and have a little farm and irrigate during that period when that excess of water is flowing down the river? Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, yes. I think all you would have to do was to make application to the State for a water right, and make use of the water, because no one on the river can hold water that they can't put to beneficial use. Mr. WHITE. That is the principle of a water right? Mr. ROBINSON. That is right. Mr. WHITE. It must be used; no matter what your dealings are, if you don't put it to beneficial use, somebody else can come along and use it? Mr. ROBINSON. That is right. Mr. WHITE. I understand there has been a situation here on the Spokane River that there was no way that anybody could touch that water below Post Falls, because it was covered by superior water rights. Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, I know that some of them have been a little short of water up here in the valley. They came to us, and we generally didn't let their crops burn up. Mr. WHITE. Our chief interest here at the present time is the provision for water. You and your company recognize certain old water rights, and there is a division, as I understand it, at Post Falls. And one of the local reclamation districts is getting water by a diversion on a gravity flow; is that right? I understand it is some very cooperative arrangement between yourself and these water users that you have not only recognized their rights to this water, but you have also permitted them to get the benefit of the head that you made at Post Falls, and their canal connects with your pool that is made by your Post Falls Dam; is that right? Mr. ROBINSON. I really don't know about that specifically. Mr. WHITE. Haven't you seen this canal leading out at Post Falls? Do you know anything about the old water rights under which they are operating? Mr. ROBINSON. I really do not. Out here in the power business, you don't pay much attention to water rights at the moment. Mr. WHITE. Well, there is a very substantial division of the waters of the Spokane River at the present time. Mr. ROBINSON. Oh, I imagine there are many water rights for reclamation or irrigation purposes that are prior to ours. Mr. WHITE. I don't think the record will disclose that. I don't think your company recognizes below Post Falls very many superior water rights. I think this one that is operated up there at Post Falls is about the only one I have heard about. Mr. ROBINSON. They must be superior to ours, or they wouldn't be irrigating. Mr. WHITE. I think, Mr. Robinson, we haven't yet in this examination found any basis for determining just what is the volume of power that you are going to ask-require-from the Government in exchange for this water. We haven't even found the basis on which you compute your exchange-the value of the volume exchanged. How are you going to determine that? Mr. ROBINSON. The Bureau of Reclamation have submitted some figures to us as to what their ideas are as to diversion and return flow, and also the number of kilowatt-hours required to do the pumping. Now, we are checking those figures and expect to have a meeting with the Bureau of Reclamation around the 1st of the month, at which that thing will be gone over thoroughly, and try to reach some determination. It isn't a thing that you can just do off-hand. As a matter of fact, so far as our company is concerned, the first time that they ever discussed with us the possibility of using water from Coeur d'Alene to irrigate the 40,000-acre project has been within the last week. So that we have had very little opportunity to sit down and try to develop figures on it. Oh, we had done some work on it when they were talking about some similar project, and we are working on it at the moment. Mr. WHITE. You are serving-or supplying energy that pumps water-on several of the local irrigation districts near the city limitsthe Modern Electric Water Co., as I understand it, and several others? Mr. ROBINSON. Yes, we are; that is right. Mr. WHITE. Would it be a logical thing, if such a larger project was developed, and half-a-mill kilowatt was used to pump-to supply this energy-to pump this water, that it could be extended to these |
