Gravamina.

and that, while availing themselves of the more fully developed Synodal action which the colonies happily enjoy, they will not be unmindful of the interest which is felt by those among whom they have recently sat in this Synod; but will remember that our power to co-operate is limited by the trammels with which we are shackled, and not by any want of true sympathy. Though divided from them by distance, I trust we shall still continue to be one in spirit, in love, and in hope. The PROLOCUTOR put the question, "that the whole of the clauses, as amended, be adopted."

ARCHDEACON DENISON-I wish to move an amendment in the last clause but one. I do not understand what is meant by the expression "Episcopal" Church. The Church is necessarily "Episcopal," and it will seem most extraordinary if Convocation sends out a document implying that any other body has a right to call itself the Church. I beg to move the omission of the word "Episcopal."

DR. CASWALL-I may just observe that the American Episcopal Church has chosen that title for itself.

The amendment was put and negatived; and the clauses, together with the preamble, were adopted.

The PROLOCUTOR then read the schedule of prorogation.

Session, Friday, Feb. 11, 1859.

The house met at eleven o'clock.

Prayers having been read, and the Assessors appointed, the Prolocutor was summoned to the Upper House; and in his absence the names of members and the minutes of the previous session were read, the Ven. Archdeacon Bickersteth presiding.

Upon the return of the Prolocutor,

PETITIONS AND GRAVAMINA.

CANON WORDSWORTH said-I have to present a petition which is of very considerable importance, both from the persons from whom it comes and the subject upon which it treats. It is signed by an individual whose name, I think, must command the respect of every member of the house for his very praiseworthy efforts in doing what he can to give efficiency to our deliberations, and he has done the work with so much temper and so much judgment as well as zeal that he is entitled to special gratitude for his exertions. I need hardly name Mr. Hoare. But, Mr. Prolocutor, this petition has special merits, and specially claims our attention inasmuch as though signed by an indidividual, yet it represents the opinions of a very large number of persons whose signatures are not appended to the petition. I believe that it represents not less than 1,000 of the clergy of the Established Church of England and Ireland, I believe principally resident in the two Provinces of Canterbury and York, and that it represents the clergy residing in no less than fourteen dioceses where the principle of the petition has already been adopted. I will not take up the time of the house with any further observations upon the petition, but will

simply request leave to refer to the opinion which the petition expresses as to the temper which characterises the deliberations of Convocation.

[For this petition see p. 3, Upper House.]

CANON SELWYN-I have to present a gravamen which I wish to be adopted by the house as an articulus cleri, or referred to the committee of gravamina. It is this

That, while other public bodies have been improved and strengthened by the operation of Acts of Parliament, the tendency and effect of recent legislation for the cathedral and collegiate churches has been to weaken those bodies, and to lay upon their estates almost exclusively the burden of providing for the general necessities of the whole Church. We, therefore, pray their lordships to use their endeavours in Parliament to secure for the cathedral and collegiate churches more just and salutary

enactments.

NOTICES OF MOTION.

The REV. S. BEST-That in order to expedite the business of the house, and the discussion of measures of primary importance, a committee be appointed in each year for the ensuing year, to classify notices of motion, and appoint the order in which they shall be brought before the house.

The REV. P. C. CLAUGHTON-That this house begs respectfully to express to their lordships of the Upper House their earnest desire to see the abrogation of all temporal penalties that at present attach to the sentence of excommunication, and to request their lordships to take into their consideration to devise the best means of effecting such a reform.

CANON WORDSWORTH-That the petition brought before the house on the petition presented by Lord John Manners and others on the misappropriation of tithe property, which was ordered to lie on the table, be taken into consideration by the house.

FINANCES.

The PROLOCUTOR-I have to bring under the notice of the house the matter of the expenses of the meeting of Convocation. Last year the committee of finances presented a report, which I will read— The committee appointed to consider the subject of the expenses of the Lower House of Convocation, and questions incidental thereto, report

That in their opinion no funds can be legally raised from the general body of Convocation, except such fees as are established by custom.

That these fees are, and must remain, exclusively appropriated to the payment of the several officers of Convocation.

That all other charges can only be defrayed out of contributions made voluntarily by the members of Convocation.

That, under these circumstances, it is necessary that the expenses should be conducted on the lowest possible scale.

That it possibly may be considered expedient to print reports of committees, after their presentation to the house, for the convenience of its members, but that those reports only which are printed by order of the house shall become a charge against the fund which may be voluntarily placed at the disposal of this committee.

That the Prolocutor be requested to take on himself the circulation of such reports, and to send a statement of the expenses incurred in doing so, including printing, to the Chairman of the Committee of Expenses.

That the several committees be responsible for any expenses incurred in printing for their own convenience,

Finances.]

That the Prolocutor be empowered to authorise the defrayment by the committee of certain small items of expenditure made for the convenience or in behalf of Convocation, such as stationery, remuneration to the keeper of the Jerusalem Chamber, &c.

That the house shall order this report to be printed, and that the Prolocutor be requested to ascertain, by a circular accompanying it, the names of such members as shall consent to be rateably charged by the committee for the defrayment of such expenses as shall be from time to time incurred.

That, when the chairman of the committee has audited the accounts, the Prolocutor be requested to apply for the assessment charged against each member consenting to be so assessed, at the time when the fees are collected.

Your committee have reason to believe that the expenses of the last Convocation amounted, during the whole period of its existence, to a sum of 65l., or thereabouts. Two assessments were made to reimburse the Prolocutor, amounting in all to

14s. 6d. on Deans.

9s. 6d. on Archdeacons and Proctors for Chapters.
7s. 6d. on Proctors for the Clergy.

This assessment was made on each member; the returns yielded about 487.

Your committee cannot recommend the adoption of the proposal of the Archdeacon of Lewes with regard to forming a collection of legal or other books for the use of Convocation, nor that of Mr. Seymour as to printing notes of the proceedings of this house for the use of its members.

The committee report that a sum of about 25l. is now due on account of expenses already incurred. HY. MILMAN, Chairman.

I believe Canon Selwyn has given notice to present an address to the Upper House, with a view of obtaining from Parliament the payment of the expenses of Convocation out of the Consolidated Fund, and in consequence of this I have drawn up a statement by which it appears that, under the voluntary system, there is no difficulty in providing for our expenses. The Deans have been assessed at 9s., the Archdeacons at 6s. 9d., and the Proctors for Chapters at 4s. 6d., and the result is that we have received in all 397. 9s. 9d. The whole of the expenses amount to 361. 5s. 8d., so that there is a balance in hand of 31. 4s. 1d. The number of members who have paid is 123, and twentytwo have not paid, making in all 145 members. With regard to the causes of the non-payment, several were absent, and I believe three only have refused to pay. Hence I do not think there is any necessity for making any assessment for the present; but I propose that the finance committee be requested to assess the members of the house to an extent sufficient to pay the expenses incurred on behalf of the house during the year, in the proportion of Deans, one; Archdeacons, twothirds; and Proctors for Chapters, one-half-that is to say, if the Deans have to pay 9s., Archdeacons would have to pay 6s., and Proctors for Chapters, 4s. 6d.

CANON WORDSWORTH-I think we ought to be thankful that we are in such a state of financial prosperity.

The PROLOCUTOR-I wish to be allowed also to say a word upon the question which arose yesterday as to whether the standing orders should be printed. It has struck members of the committee that very possibly the expenses of Convocation would be very much lessened by members subscribing to the periodical which prints all our standing orders and all our reports. Our expenses are very heavy. We have paid as much as 47. for postage-stamps alone.

CANON SELWYN-I call upon the Actuary to read the minute of the

[Finances.

proceedings of last year, when the report was made respecting the payment of the expenses of Convocation.

The minutes having been read,

The PROLOCUTOR-Canon Selwyn seems to think that the report of the expenses committee was not adopted; but it was adopted so far as the recommendations to which I have referred were concerned, and the circular I have alluded to was drawn up in consequence.

CANON SELWYN-When the report was read last year I gave notice that, instead of adopting the report, an amendment should be substituted to the effect that the expenses of Convocation should be paid in the same way as the expenses of other legislative bodies are paid. It was entered in the minutes that the amendment would come on when the report was under consideration; and this shows that the report has never been properly discussed by the house. I will now move an amendment, substantially to the same effect, and ask the house to consider whether it is right and proper that the Prolocutor of this houseone of the constitutional legislative bodies of the realm-should be put to so precarious a mode of reimbursing himself for the expenses of Convocation. I am glad to see that the voluntary system has worked so well, but I ask whether it is right that the cost of printing these reports, and the necessary expenses for servants of the house, should be thrown upon us, in addition to the expenses of coming to London, and the cost of lodging during the time of our meetings? I have paid 21. 6s. myself, and others, perhaps, have paid more. This is the way in which I think the report presses very unfairly upon individual members-upon the Prolocutor, the committee, and the members. I ask the house now to consider what is due to itself and its own position. Look at the appointment of each Prolocutor, which follows the wording of the royal writ of the Archbishop exactly-of the Archbishop who summons the clergy to appear here we find we are summoned to treat on the state and welfare of the Church of England -on matters "weighty and various relating to the welfare of the Church of England, the public good, the allegiance of the realm and subjects thereof, and to give the Crown assistance therein." This being our object, is it right that we should enter upon a proceeding which puts us in the position of a clerical meeting with no constitutional authority whatever? If we were merely a clerical meeting, we might agree to pay our expenses by voluntary means, but it is the last thing for us to do as a constitutional body; and we are wrong to adopt the voluntary principle as part of our proceedings. If it were necessary to be done it might be done out of court, but I protest against its forming part of the business of Convocation. It has been said in this report that no funds can be legally raised by the general body of Convocation, except such as are established by custom, and I agree with that; but we have been told by Archbishop Parker that the clergy in Convocation have the power to tax the general body of the clergy for their own expenses and subsidies for the State. But we have put that right in abeyance-we contribute to the full as much as any others to the general burdens of the State-and I consider it, therefore, nothing but fair and right that out of the revenues paid into

the Exchequer by the clergy we should have the just and reasonable expenses of Convocation defrayed. Can the doctrine be for one moment sustained that other branches of the State should have their expenses extravagantly provided for their printing at the rate of 400,000l. per annum-while it is objected to allow Convocation for that purpose 651. for four years? I believe that if the subject were brought before the Upper House, and by them before Parliament in the way I propose, Parliament would see the justice and reasonableness of our wish, and allow our expenses in the votes of the year. I ask the house to send a request to the Upper House, through the Prolocutor, praying their lordships to consider of an humble address to her Majesty from the Convocation of this Province, that her Majesty may be graciously pleased to direct that an estimate be laid before Parliament for defraying the necessary expenses of Convocation and the cost of printing our reports, out of the revenues paid by the clergy to the Exchequer.

The PROLOCUTOR-I wish to offer some explanations respecting the amount paid to the servants of the house. Out of the 21. 6s. paid by Canon Selwyn yesterday, 17. 10s. was paid to the Registrar-who is not a servant of the house-10s. to the Actuary, and 6s. to the servants of the house. The distribution of fees was under the consideration of the committee, but they found they had no power to touch them, and it is a question whether the Archbishop can make any alteration at this moment. The Actuary-who is a servant appointed by the Archbishop of Canterbury-has more than once had his position brought before the committee of expenses, and it appears that his salary is very much trenched upon by the expenses to which he is put. I will not now go into details, but the case will probably come again before the committee, and some recommendation in regard to it may be agreed to.

ARCHDEACON THORP-I wish to know why the expenses of Convocation should be defrayed out of the revenues paid by the clergy to the Exchequer?

CANON WOODGATE-I think the expression "out of the fund contributed by the clergy" open to objection. Although it follows naturally from Canon Selwyn's arguments, yet when disjoined from them it loses its force. For the clergy pay no taxes as clergy, distinct from the rest of the community, and even those connected with tenths and first-fruits are already assigned to a definite object. I would therefore suggest the omission of those words.

ARCHDEACON THORP-I beg to move that the words be struck out. It is not for us to say what fund the expenses should come from.

CANON SELWYN-I do not object to an alteration of the motion, placing the charge upon the Consolidated Fund.

LORD A. COMPTON-I would point out to Canon Selwyn that this is really a very difficult and delicate question to enter upon. We all know that all money votes come from the House of Commons, and Canon Selwyn's suggestion is, that the subject should be brought before the House of Lords. (Canon Selwyn-" No, no.") It is not in the words, but that is what I understand the suggestion to be. But