The CHAIRMAN. And one from Lumber City to Doctortown and Brunswick?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And there is also a line on the Oconee River?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir; there is also a line on the Oconee River running from Dublin. I do not know just how far it goes. Mr. Hughes could probably tell how far those boats run.

Mr. HUGHES. Two boats run from Dublin whenever it is possible to do so. I think they run down to Doctortown.

Mr. LONG. I know they make some trips down there.

Mr. DE FOUR. Before Mr. Long gets away from the question of increased horsepower, I want to say that the advantage is more in control of the boats than in speed.

Mr. LONG. Yes. The more horsepower you have the easier it is to maneuver your boats.

The CHAIRMAN. How many trips have you made with your new boat?

Mr. LONG. We have made eight, I believe. I think we are on the eighth round trip.

The CHAIRMAN. Is she employed continuously?

Mr. LONG. I do not believe I understand your question.

The CHAIRMAN. Although she does not make regular trips, she is continuously employed?

Mr. LONG. Oh, yes, sir; we have hauled some fine cargoes in that little boat. On account of not being known, we sometimes did not have regular cargoes.

Mr. DE FOUR. May I suggest that you direct the attention of the committee to the best time that has been made by these boats?

Mr. LONG. The best time for a round trip ever made on the run from Macon to Brunswick and return was 13 days, and that was made only once. It was made by the fastest boat ever put on the river, one of the old Macon & Brunswick Navigation Co.'s boats. We have reduced our regular run down to 12, and we have made a return trip in 9 days, spending 1 or 2 days at the terminal, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not know you had a regular run.

Mr. LONG. We have a regular run, but not a regular schedule. Our destination is Brunswick. Perhaps it would be better to say that our route is from Macon to Brunswick and Brunswick to Macon. Of course, we do some business along the way, but we do not make that at regular times. We have not got that well established yet, but we are going to do it.

Mr. TAYLOR. How much of this 361 miles is navigable at all seasons of the year with this steel boat?

Mr. LONG. The present boat would probably have to stop navigation for approximately 30 days in each summer. The second boat will be built to run the year around.

The CHAIRMAN. We have the tonnage given here as 169,000 on that system of rivers.

Mr. LONG. That boat has been running only since October of last

year.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to say that the boat has been running only since October?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir; because between the 20th of July and the 1st of October we were breaking in our crew, going over the river.

While the crew knew something about the river, they did not know about the boats. We made very poor progress up to the 1st of October.

The CHAIRMAN. That is for the fiscal year 1915.

Mr. LONG. We were not running then at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a record?

Mr. LONG. We will have one to give to the Interstate Commerce Commission at the end of the fiscal year. I can not state offhand what we have hauled ourselves. I do not know what the true tonnage of the river is. We have hauled around 1,000 tons of freight since October.

Mr. EDWARDS. You have had about four months' operation?
Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. EDWARDS. What average is that?

Mr. LONG. Two hundred and fifty tons a month, which is very low. Mr. EDWARDS. That is, one boat?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir; without a schedule and without an established business.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you state approximately what the tonnage was for the year 1915?

Mr. LONG. I do not think there has been any change.

Mr. EDWARDS. There has been considerable change since the hearing. At the last hearing we had before us these facts: The Altamaha River was navigable for 144 miles, the Oconee for 145 miles, and the Ocmulgee to Macon, 205 miles. This makes a total navigability of the Altamaha systems throughout Georgia of 494 miles. Now, the tonnage there in the report of the engineer for the Altamaha River in 1914 was 15,533 tons; for the whole system the tonnage was 18,512 tons, valued at $2,591,421. The report for 1915 shows a tonnage of 169,611 tons, valued at $4,890,984. It shows also very nearly 60,000,000 feet of lumber.

Mr. KENNEDY. That includes that, or is outside of it?

Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, no; it does not include it. It does not include the lumber. It shows a doubling of the commerce on some commodities.

Mr. KENNEDY. What is the average decrease?

Mr. LONG. The average by river would be about 20 per cent.

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Has it affected the railroad rates in any way? Mr. LONG. Yes, sir. The application of the interstate-commerce act, known as the fourth section, was applied to our section of the country on the 1st day of January. The city of Augusta got a preference. She got a rate from New York of 87 cents, as against Macon's $1.09 and against Atlanta's $1.14 on first-class freight from New York to these points.

Mr. HUMPHREYS. Because of the fact she had river competition? Mr. LONG. Yes, sir. We got 5 per cent preference because of our activities on the river. There is no doubt about that. I happen to have a little schedule worked out on that point to show how that worked out.

Mr. WEATHERLY. Mr. Chairman, I am rather familiar with these rates. Mr. Long refers to a preference of 5 cents and to the rate from New York to Macon of $1.09 as against the rate of $1.14 to Atlanta. That is an important point. He refers to that 5 cents preference over Atlanta, which he gets because of water competition

Mr. LONG. The rate to Macon via rail and water, as against the rate to Augusta via rail and water, is what I am talking about. Mr. TREADWAY. From where?

Mr. LONG. From New York on first clss. It gives Augusta 12 cents advantage, because she has 97 against $1.09, all water, from New York. On second class to Macon the rate is 93; to Augusta it is 87, reducing the difference to 6.

As applied to Atlanta, rail and water to Atlanta from New York on first class, the rate is $1.14 and to Macon $1.09, making a differential of 5 cents. The rate by water from New York to Macon being 93 cents makes a spread of 21 cents in favor of Macon, all water from New York, as against Atlanta, all water from New York. As that works out, it gives a distinct advantage in that respect. Although Augusta, by a potential regular service on the river, has yet a tremendous advantage over every other point in our section of the State, I think she ought to have it, because she is doing things to get it.

Mr. SMALL. Do you have rough weather before reaching your destination?

Mr. LONG. Going to Brunswick we do. We have rough weather when we cross St. Catherines Sound, for about 3 miles.

Mr. SMALL. Have you had an opportunity to test the capacity of the boat in rough weather?

Mr. LONG. No, sir. I may state, however, that it is practically impossible to build a boat to run on the river and run on the ocean,

too.

Mr. SMALL. I am not asking about the ocean, but about the sounds. Mr. LONG. There is nothing for us to do but to keep out of it when it gets that way.

Mr. KENNEDY. You can not do anything with a shallow-draft boat in rough weather?

Mr. LONG. No, sir. I think it proper at this time to tell this committee about the troubles that we have had in our efforts to navigate the river with the very best things in the country for navigating such rivers. We were assured by all the records that we could get hold of-reports of engineers, etc.-that we had 3 feet of water in the river at the lowest water stages for the whole system from Macon to Brunswick. We relied upon that statement, or statements. We did not try to build a boat that would navigate the river on less water than 30 inches because we had 30 inches all the time, that being 6 inches less than the depth stated in the reports. In other words, we gave the reports the advantage of 6 inches. We tried to build a boat to hold not a profitable load, but a sustaining load, during the entire season.

We left Macon on July 20. The water was low. We told our people that we were going to build a boat to navigate that river. If anybody had a streak of yellow, he did not show up. We went, and we had 100 bales of cotton on the boat; and we sailed down the river. We had some troubles.

Mr. HULBERT. How many tons was that?

Mr. LONG. Twenty-five tons.

Mr. HULBERT. That is all you had?

Mr. LONG. The first day out we had a kind of a picnic, but the second morning I was up in the pilot house and all at once we struck

something down in the river. The captain went down there, and they had a hole in the bottom of the boat. We had dug a hole right down under the engine. The water was shooting up in there pretty reckless. We had a man on board who had experience in that connection. He never bothered about that hole. He turned around and started to cut some pins. I asked him what he was doing. He cut up half a dozen pegs and put them in the bottom of the boat. They are in there yet. If he had not been there, the boat would have been at the bottom. We would have had a sunken boat. I believe that was the fault of the crew, but it was not our fault, because we had the best crew available. You understand, there was no navigation on the river to speak of for five years or more. Those who had known the river in days past had moved away, and those who thought they knew about it gave us more trouble than anybody.

The CHAIRMAN. You had 169,000 tons on it before you started. Mr. LONG. Yes, sir; but we found some things that the other fellows didn't know were there. We ran upon rocks, and in some instances we had trouble with sand. We had to take soundings, because there were sunken logs.

The CHAIRMAN. Without going into details, you did get down? Mr. LONG. We got down in 29 days.

The CHAIRMAN. You were tied up?

Mr. LONG. Tied up 10 days at Lumber City. We had to unload about 20 tons of stuff and put it on the railroad to send home. The CHAIRMAN. How much did you say you had?

Mr. LONG. We had 83 tons coming back. We were drawing full capacity at the advertised depth of the river.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the minimum depth?

Mr. LONG. That is pretty hard to answer, because the gauges down the river have never been regulated uniformly at the different points.

The CHAIRMAN. You know what you were drawing?

Mr. LONG. I am safe in saying 29 inches. We were drawing, before we unloaded, 36 inches; but we took off 20 tons and lightened up the boat to a minimum draft of 30 inches coming over several places. The CHAIRMAN. How long did that continue?

Mr. LONG. There was an intermission of that condition, because we had 3 or 4 days rain. On the next trip we stayed 10 days at Hawkinsville because we could not get over some rock. We complained of those conditions to the department, and the department has now removed those rocks.

Mr. KENNEDY. As a general proposition, was it not unwise to start in a 36-inch river with a 30-inch boat?

Mr. LONG. I am very glad to answer that question. I will say that we were very cautious. When we reached Brunswick, knowing our capacity, we met one of the chief assistants of the engineer or the division engineer. We told him about the freight that we had waiting for us, and asked his judgment as to whether we should take it on or leave part of it there, and he made fun of us for asking him that question. He says, "Certainly, put it on, if you have a man who knows the river." Well, we put it on and we had a sweet time, too. We got home and then we left home again with 300 bales of cotton. We were delayed again.

24046-16- -2

Mr. TREADWAY. That was 75 tons that time?

Mr. LONG. Seventy-five tons; yes, sir.

Mr. TREADWAY. Did you get down with that?
Mr. LONG. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. TREADWAY. Without getting into so much trouble?

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to state for the benefit of the gentlemen here that we do not care to go beyond 12 o'clock with this hearing. We may go a little beyond, but we prefer to close as soon as possible after that hour.

Mr. LONG. I will try to finish it up. I have tried to cover the whole thing.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that you constructed another boat. I want to ask you a question about that.

Mr. LONG. Gentlemen, that is something very interesting. I would like to have every member of the committee look at this [indicating blue print]. That is the boat that is now being constructed. This boat will be 156 feet long, 32 feet wide, and will carry 300 horsepower. That horsepower will be generated in what is known as the Talbott boiler. It is a system by which we have greatly reduced the weight, with the result that we increase the carrying capacity, and I think it is the best proposition for shallow rivers in the whole country. She has seven water-tight compartments in the hold, making her practically unsinkable, as far as our river is concerned. There are 100 feet between this point and this point [indicating], this being what is known as the cargo house. That boat will carry 1,460 bales of cotton in this house, all under roof. It is under a steel roof, a little more than one-eighth of an inch thick. That boat is all steel except its upper structure. We found, in the steel construction, we could not take care of the crew as well as we wanted to. Everything about the boat will be steel except that up there [indicating]. Mr. KENNEDY. How much water will that draw?

Mr. LONG. Twenty-four inches with 100 tons. That is what Mr. De Four referred to when he said that we had something at Macon that was going to reflect to the benefit of the whole country.

Mr. KENNEDY. How much at full capacity?

Mr. LONG. Three hundred and forty tons on 48 inches.

Mr. TREADWAY. But you haven't got 48 inches.

Mr. LONG. We have sometimes. Probably from the 1st of October to the 1st of May of every year we could carry full tonnage.

Mr. KENNEDY. That would take in a large part of the cotton-selling season?

Mr. LONG. Oh, yes, sir; practically all of it.
Mr. DE FOUR. Cotton only moves one way.
Mr. LONG. Oh, yes, sir; that is to the ports.

Mr. HULBERT. The greatest necessity, Mr. Long, for taking a heavy load of cotton is at the time when the river is at the highest point, is it not?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HULBERT: When the shipments of cotton diminish, that is the season of the year when the river is lowest?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir; that is true.

Now, we are going to put on a system of lighters to take care of the great demand that we found for service down the river. We have