from Bremen Harbor on the way to Bremen and not realize the necessity of Richmond being connected with the Atlantic Ocean.

Mr. MONTAGUE. I should like to ask the committee to hear for a few moments from Mr. S. T. Morgan, the president of the VirginiaCarolina Chemical Co. Mr. Morgan is a gentleman of large business experience and business responsibility. He is president of a corporation having over $50,000,000 capitalization.

STATEMENT OF MR. S. T. MORGAN, PRESIDENT VIRGINIA-CAROLINA CHEMICAL CO., RICHMOND, VA.

Mr. MORGAN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I will detain you only a very few minutes. Of course my business necessitates a great deal of knowledge of ocean freight traffic. I will say that we ordinarily handle, load and unload, three foreign steamers a week. We are both importers and exporters.

My knowledge of Richmond has been for the last 20 years. I have lived in Richmond 20 years. I can see the difference that we have in doing business in Richmond to-day and in doing business in Richmond 20 years ago. Twenty years ago we could get a great many coastwise vessels drawing from 12 to 16 feet of water. We did the big business of Richmond in that way. There are a good many cargoes of foreign stuff, from China and Japan and other ports, to Richmond, but all of that is over and has been over now for several years. Not that the waters of James River are any less than they were, but the ships are so much larger. I do not know to-day of three coastwise vessels that draw under 16 feet of water. I hardly know of one that can be chartered at any price to-day.

It simply means for James River that her commerce is not going to stay even where it is to-day. It will continually decrease unless it has more depth of water, because there are no vessels being built to-day, and there is no likelihood of any more vessels of that character ever being built. In fact, with our present shipping conditions it does not pay to run small steamers. I have been in that business. You can not afford to run a small steamer.

If Richmond and the James River are going to be dependent entirely on its local traffic-and that is all you want with it-I advise you to do nothing except to keep it cleaned out a little bit. If you just want James River to be a passage for barge lines down to Nerfolk, it is plenty deep enough for that to-day. But that means it is absolutely and positively local in every sense, and as a local condition is worth very little to Richmond or to the country.

One of the gentlemen on the committee was talking about freight rates, rail and water. You can not take the little ships that ply between Richmond and Norfolk and get a very much less local rate than the railroads can carry it for. That has been shown not only in the case of Richmond but it is so in all other lines. It is so on the Mississippi, where there are short hauls. The railroad can carry cheaper than the vessel can carry on short hauls. The loading and unloading of a steamer or Lark is a costly part of the freight. If we could get 22 feet of water at Richmond, I think you would see our foreign business come back. We are to-day discharging a cargo of stuff we bought in Peru. We want to bring the balance of

that cargo to Richmond. We can not do it. We are stopping that cargo to-day and discharging it with only 2,000 tons on it at Norfolk that we have got to bring to Richmond by barge or by rail. Mr. MONTAGUE. You reload at Norfolk?

Mr. MORGAN. We reload and bring it up to Richmond and unload it again at our factory. To-day any foreign commerce with Richmond is absolutely done in that way. It is also done in that way as to coastwise trade. We have not, I think, gotten three coastwise vessels in Richmond-solid vessels in Richmond-in two years.

Mr. FREAR. May I ask you the draft of that boat that brings the cargo from Peru?

Mr. MORGAN. That vessel has 24 feet. She had 7,000 tons on her. Mr. FREAR. For a boat of that sort you would need 26 feet?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes; but rarely ever do any of those big steamers go to a port. They go to two ports and sometimes to three. You take our case, in the purchase of potash, of which we import 200,000 or 300,000 tons, and you can see what an enormous amount of ships it takes to do it. Those ships make two or three ports. We send to Wilmington, where they have 22 feet. We could bring them to Richmond just as well, but we can not get 22 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. You say it requires about 22 feet for the potash boats?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes. They could come right into Richmond with 22 feet. As I say, most all of those vessels make two ports. Rarely do they make a single port except some big place, like Charleston or New York. It is the same with our phosphates. It all comes from Florida. We bring it all to our Richmond factory. It comes to Norfolk on a steamer; we discharge it, unload part there, discharge the other, and send up part by barge to Richmond.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Will you tell the committee whether you intend putting seagoing boats on yourself?

Mr. MORGAN. Oh, yes. I got two steamers I could not handle. Mr. MONTAGUE. Why could you not handle them?

Mr. MORGAN. I found my steamers on the bottom about half the time. I had pretty well to rebottom two new steamers, which cost me a quarter million dollars each.

Mr. FREAR. What was the draft?

Mr. MORGAN. Sixteen feet. I tried 16 feet, but that has been several years ago. I sold those steamers right after the SpanishAmerican War. I was not sure then of getting 16 feet; I did not get 16 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose either you or someone else can file a statement with us of the number and value of the industrial and manufacturing interests in Richmond?

Mr. MORGAN. I shall have to refer that to someone else.

Mr. WILLIAMS. We do not have it with us, but we have figured it all right.

Mr. MORGAN. We will have it sent to you.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how much freight tonnage originates there?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not. I am not in Richmond a great deal of my time. Outside of my individual business I am not well acquainted with general conditions there. Of course, we are probably the largest shippers in Richmond, but I am not able to tell you

that; but the board of trade there, I am satisfied, will be very glad if you will allow them to send you the statistics complete.

The CHAIRMAN. We shall be glad to have that.

Mr. MORGAN. I will ask that that be done. Now, sir, if you are only going to appropriate I have been in Richmond for 20 years, I live right on the banks of the river, and in my candid opinion, if you are only going to appropriate some $75,000 or $80,000 a year you can not hope to do anything more than to keep the sand out of the river, if you only do that.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice the engineers report 18 feet of water minimum depth, as of the 30th of June, last year. Mr. Williams stated there was only 16 feet now.

Mr. MORGAN. I would not think there had been any material lessening of the water, Mr. Chairman, from that time until now. That is what they claim. I do not dispute their statement, but the captains of the vessels I have heard them say frequently, and also the pilots of these boats, that they would only bring a ship up drawing over 16 feet if the captain of the ship would allow them to anchor when he struck low water.

The CHAIRMAN. Your tidal rise there is about 4 feet, is it not? Mr. MORGAN. I think about 3 feet 6 inches to 4 feet; yes, sir.

Mr. FREAR. I was going to suggest, Mr. Morgan, since that report states that, and it does specifically, at low water, why would it not be desirable to furnish to the committee a statement of the places along the river where it does not reach 18 feet? I think we ought to know whether or not this is accurate in that respect.

Mr. MORGAN. Yes; I think that is quite right, and I think the captains of any of those tugboats could give it to you.

Richmond wants, and it strikes me that the State needs, the James River improved. Taking up the thought that Mr. Williams suggested, it strikes me that the James River is really, if there is anything at all in our theory of preparedness I can not see where any thing would be of more benefit to the country at large than a deep waterway, a comparatively deep waterway in James River. Richmond and that section are peculiarly prepared as manufacturing centers to do what may be necessary in the manufacture of munitions of war, and so forth, and Richmond is the finest distributing point I know of. We have connections with every city of any consequence from New York to Galveston. I do not know of a better distributing point to-day outside of New York than is Richmond. It is perfectly splendid. If we just had water there I think we would have a very much more prosperous town. If we do not have the water it will be impossible to do very much more with it. Business is only going to go where transportation is afforded. People are not going to build small ships in order to go up the James River. The only way to get ships up the James River is to deepen James River, and it appeals to me, with all the advantage that the river has, and with the small cost in comparison with the expenditures in this line as a rule, that it would be wise and discreet on the part of the Government to do that work and to do it promptly, and not to do it by piecemeal as it has been done since I have been there.

Mr. FREAR. About what amount of freight do you handle—that is, does your firm handle-in a year?

Mr. MORGAN. Do you mean out of Richmond?

Mr. FREAR. Yes.

Mr. MORGAN. I should say about 60,000 or 70,000 tons.
Mr. FREAR. What proportion of that goes by water?

Mr. MORGAN. Very little of it now.

Mr. FREAR. Ten per cent?

Mr. MORGAN. Oh, yes; probably 10 per cent, but that is local on the James River.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does the bulk of your freight go to?

Mr. MORGAN. The freight goes into Virginia and sections of North Carolina.

The CHAIRMAN. It goes by rail to those sections?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes, sir; there is no waterway.

Mr. SWITZER. What do I understand your tonnage imports are? Your tonnage coming into Richmond?

Mr. MORGAN. We bring into Richmond about 35,000 tons of material a year. Most of that is composed of phosphate rock, pyrites, which comes from Spain, and potash salts, crude materials for manufacturing fertilizer.

Mr. FREAR. How does it reach you from Spain?

Mr. MORGAN. It comes to Norfolk port.

Mr. MONTAGUE. And is reshipped?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes; it is all that way. We know that there are a great many foreign ships you could get in there drawing 22 feet, because we have them go into other places, solid cargoes, as they go right across the Atlantic from Spain over here, lots of them.

Mr. MONTAGUE. What is the additional cost of freight by reason of the breaking at Norfolk and the rehandling of your material? Mr. MORGAN. We figure it costs us about 75 cents a ton more because there are two handlings. I think the freight rate by rail or barge is around 50 to 60 cents per ton.

Mr. MONTAGUE. May I ask your opinion as to whether or not there would be additional manufacturing plants in Richmond on the river if we had a greater depth of water?

Mr. MORGAN. I think that is unquestionably so.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Do you know whether or not there have been inquiries, substantial, not imaginative inquiries, but real substantial inquiries by responsible people to make such establishments if you could have deep water there?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes. I would have to qualify that by saying that I understand there have been such, but they have not been made directly to me. I think it is quite true they would grow enormously if we had the depth of water. Richmond is splendidly located with every facility, with a good climate, and everything like that.,

The CHAIRMAN. Outside of the water facilities there your chief asset is the water power, is it not?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And as I understand all of you gentlemen are urging this improvement partly on account of the fact that you have important manufacturing plants there as a result of this water power, that the balance of the country needs these products, and that the completed project is necessary to that end?

Mr. MORGAN. Richmond has large water power and, as the most of you know, the peculiar thing about Richmond, I think possessed

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by only two other cities in the world, is that it has 4 feet tidewater, and magnificent water power. You can throw a stone from one to the other. I think there are only two other places in the world so situated. Richmond also has cheap coal. It is near the coal fields. It is a fine manufacturing location, not dependent on the water power alone. Of course the water power helps any place enormously, but Richmond could go on if the water power was not there, absolutely. And we would do a great deal of export business from Richmond.

Some of the gentlemen have said, Why not keep Richmond as it is? Also some of the gentlemen have asked why should not the merchants buy a boat? I will tell you. I would not put a dollar in it. I would not give a cent for a boat to go out of Richmond which would only go to Norfolk and Newport News, and have no connection. It is not worth anything. Our local freights to Norfolk and Newport News are probably cheap enough, but that is not what we want. We want to get all over the world directly from Richmond. We might have to stop at Norfolk and Newport News if they give us two or three offerings. If we are only to go to Norfolk and Newport News we have got all the water in the river now we want, as far as I can see, but if we are going to have James River what it ought to be, what it seems the Lord intended it to be-you know it has been a navigable stream beyond the memory of any of us, and it is intended as a waterway for this country; it is the best protected river of any river I know of, not dependent upon floods or rains. They make no difference to it. And I hope you gentlemen will see your way clear to give us a liberal appropriation.

I should just like to call your attention to one fact that probably you have not noticed. Richmond pays to the Government of the United States every year a little over $9,000,000 in revenues.

The CHAIRMAN. That is mostly internal revenue, is it not?
Mr. MORGAN. Mostly internal revenue and customs.

Mr. MONTAGUE. The customs are about $1,500,000, I think.
Mr. MORGAN. I can give you absolutely what the customs are.
The CHAIRMAN. That is not material.

Mr. MORGAN. Now, if Richmond is doing that much for the Government-I do not need to say that if Richmond did not do it somebody else would; but it is being done right there, and you must give it credit for it. Now, 6 per cent-you know we people are accustomed to 6 per cent, because they used to call that the very cheapest rate, you know-if you just give us 6 per cent a year of that revenue, in a few years you would have a 22-foot channel in the James River and never know you had spent the money.

Mr. HULBERT. What is the shallowest draft vessel engaged in the transportation of freight between this and foreign countries that could make use of the James River?

Mr. MORGAN. I think you will find plenty of them, sir, 22 feet. We have a lot of goods that come from Europe, about 100 tons a year. That is all brought on steamers drawing 20 feet of water or less. Those steamers carry about 3,000 tons. They are very desirable steamers; it is a very profitable fleet, so much so that the British. Government has commandeered nearly every one of those ships. They are the most suitable for their purpose.

Mr. HULBERT. What is the line you refer to, Mr. Morgan?

Mr. MORGAN. It is an English line. It belongs to Williams & Co.