people, especially in the Secretary's immediate office, have had to work extremely long hours, to a point where it can very readily result in nervous breakdowns. Our policy is to use the existing resources, already established in the Department, up to the limit on all of the emergency work.

The filing clerks, for example, and the people in Mr. Jump's office, who have to do with the Budget, have had their work greatly increased, and a great many of our fiscal activities have been greatly increased as the result of the three A's. The regular departmental disbursing office, as another example, has been expanded to handle the A.A.A. payments.

The danger in it is this, that while I think we have an extremely efficient staff, we do not have a sufficient number of second men who can keep abreast of the work and really know what is going on. These things come rather in spasms, and with the appropriation as it is, about the only way to handle it, rather than to take on temporary or emergency help who do not understand it, is for these folks to go ahead and work into the night and work it out.

Mr. Jump was telling me that his folks in the Budget and accounting office were still working there at 11 o'clock last night when he left the office. In my own office, they work until about 7 o'clock every evening, and have ever since I came down here in March, as a matter of fact.

In the Department proper, there have been in a great many different places an increase in the amount of work which they are supposed to do.

For instance, the Civilian Conservation Corps has tremendously increased the burden on the Forestry people, and the Civil Works Administration has increased the supervisory activities of a great many of our people. They have had to supervise their part of the activities. with a reduced central corps.

COMPARISON OF APPROPRIATIONS 1932, 1933, AND 1934, WITH ESTIMATES FOR 1935

You are quite familiar with the reductions that have been made in the Department appropriation. We have prepared a rather concise statement of the whole situation. The statement shows that in 1932 the amount of the appropriation for the ordinary activities of the Department was $68,600,000; for 1933, it was $58,000,000. The appropriation for 1934 was $53,600,000 originally, and when we revised the program of work under the Executive order, we cut it for actual expenditure purposes to $42,700,000. For 1935, the Budget estimate, as submitted to Congress, is $39,900,000.

Mr. JUMP. That is for the ordinary activities.

Secretary WALLACE. Those are for what you would call corresponding functions, so the figures for the different years would be comparable, without taking the special activities into consideration. Therefore, the 1935 figures would be about 41 percent under the 1932 figures. It carries the Department's expenditure program back to where it was in the early 1920's.

The appropriation figures I have just cited include the funds for research work. The amount expended for research in 1932 was about $17,500,000, and for 1935 it will be about $11,000,000.

I happen myself to be extraordinarily concerned with the research work, because, so far as scientific research in the Agricultural Department is concerned, if it is not done there, or is not done by the States, it is not likely to be done. Scientific research in the industrial field can be supported by private funds, but in agriculture it either is done by the use of State or Federal funds, or it is done not at all. There are very few folks who engage in scientific agricultural research out of private funds.

I have been very fearful, in connection with our crop-control activities, that the public mind and the congressional mind would say, this is all foolishness, reducing crop production at the same time we are trying to find more efficient methods; that it is foolishness to appropriate money for scientific work. My own view on that has been that we should get the maximum efficiency possible, but should control the application of that efficiency so it does not cause damage. I have been myself particularly sensitive to that because for many years I was a corn breeder, and happened to have rather unusual success in corn breeding, and people used to twit me in regard to my double attitude. I used to say in those days that a Government that does not utilize the results of the efficiency it is encouraging, is criminally negligent. I said that in the paper and said it in speeches in various States.

People used to twit me on doing my best to increase the efficiency of the former in my personal activities, while at the same time standing for the adjustment of our production in connection with our relation to other nations, but I do not think it is inconsistent at all. I think in our agricultural work it is quite appropriate to continue to make out farmers as efficient as possible, to discover better strains of grain, better methods of improving soil fertility, and all the vast range of activities along that line, which is not likely to be handled if we do not handle it, while at the same time we work out a sound social scheme for controlling the number of acres or the number of animals, as the case may be.

There is no organized clientele behind the scientific people; there is nobody who is going to put on a great amount of pressure, in case they are hurt.

It will be the Nation which will suffer if the scientific work is discontinued. I know of my own personal knowledge that very small sums invested that way have increased the efficiency per hour of the man-labor on farms very greatly. A dollar of investment by the Government for some of these forms of activity brought back a hundred dollars. That kind of thing has happened again and again. Mr. THURSTON. We know that General Motors, United States Steel, and Standard Oil, all that class of big organizations, allot funds for experimentation and research work every year, and it is probably passed on to the consumers of their products.

The farmer is disorganized, and if we do not have the advantage of this research work it will be a detriment likewise to the country generally.

Secretary WALLACE. Frankly, the one place where I would like to stand on this, above any other place, would be on the scientific end. That is the outstanding thing I would like to defend, and for the reasons you have mentioned.

Mr. SANDLIN. You may continue with your statement, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary WALLACE. In the estimates for 1935 the reduction amounts, roughly, to $4,000,000 for ordinary activities, and $3,500,000 for payments to states and similar items making a total reduction of about $7,500,000. Then, in connection with that, we must take into account the 5 percent addition because of the salary adjustment, which makes a net reduction of approximately $6,000,000.

UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE

I would like to put in a brief word with reference to the Under Secretary, which position is provided for in the Budget. It happens that the Department of Agriculture has always had just two administrative officers, the Secretary and the Assistant Secretary. Not another one of the civilian departments is similarly short-handed at the top. The Department of Labor, which is a somewhat smaller department than our department, and with a somewhat smaller appropriation, has two assistant secretaries authorized. The Interior Department and the Department of Commerce each also has two such officers.

The Treasury Department has 4, the State Department 5, the Post Office Department 4, and so on. It means that those men are, of course, appointed directly by the President, and have power to pass on certain matters and sign documents of various sorts. Now, it happens that with the Agricultural Adjustment Act activities we have a rather extraordinary number of documents of one sort or another to be signed, and just the labor of half-way understanding those things that are coming up before putting the signatures on them is appalling. I think that undoubtedly we ought to have another administrative man at the top in the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. SANDLIN. That would give you how many?

Secretary WALLACE. There would be the Secretary, the Under Secretary, and the Assistant Secretary. It would place the Department on a parity in this respect, with the Departments of Commerce, Labor, and Interior, and we still would be below the other civilian departments.

Mr. SANDLIN. Would that be proper on this bill, or is it legislation? Mr. JUMP. I hope the committee will decide it is a proper thing to submit in this bill.

Secretary WALLACE. I do not know about that.

The CHAIRMAN. We are prohibited from carrying legislation on an appropriation bill. We do that sometimes under a rule. Sometimes it is done as an administrative matter with a view to saving money, but as a general rule, we are trying to hold our committee down to its proper function as an appropriations committee. Does it create a new position?

Mr. JUMP. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, it is legislation.

Mr. JUMP. I hope the committee will see its way clear to approve the estimate.

Secretary WALLACE. We have had an extraordinary increase in the central office work. It would be difficult for anyone outside the office to comprehend the way in which the Agricultural Adjustment Administration activities have increased our office work.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a pretty good judgment on that from the amount of money that is being expended.

Secretary WALLACE. Yes, sir; the office work is in proportion to that. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any legislation contemplated by the Agricultural Committee in which this could be included?

Mr. JUMP. Not that I know of.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other bill pending before that committee that this provision could be put on?

Mr. JUMP. I do not know of any other pending bill to which this would be absolutely germane.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not have a bill before that committee providing for the expenses of county agents?

Mr. JUMP. That is something to relieve the disbursing officers from being held liable on his own bond on account of payments made by the emergency county chairman under the Adjustment Act. Of course this might be put in as section 2, but in a bill relating to the bonds, it might look peculiar.

The CHAIRMAN. Sometimes we have to do peculiar things in an emergency. We are doing some peculiar things in Congress now because of the emergency.

Mr. JUMP. This is a real emergency. The situation down there is such that it cannot be handled satisfactorily by two men. I have not seen any pressure approaching it in the 27 years I have been with the Department.

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted the Secretary to know that this is a matter of legislation. Of course, the Committee on Agriculture will do anything necessary for the welfare of the Department. Of course, on this bill it would go out on a point of order, if it were made.

Mr. JUMP. I realize that it is at the mercy of the House, of course. The CHAIRMAN. Do you not mean that it would be at the mercy of one Member?

Mr. JUMP. Yes, sir; at the mercy of any one Member of the House. We realize that, but we would have at least that one chance. I think that if the situation were made known to that one Member he would be amenable to reason. We could show him a list of other Departments with as many as four or five officials such as we are trying to provide for, and if the responsibilities of those positions were shown in comparison with the responsibilities that exist and must be met. right now in the Department of Agriculture, I think any Member who made that point would consider withdrawal of it. Of course, we realize how these things are, but we would like to try it.

Mr. SINCLAIR. You would prefer to leave it in this bill, and take your chances on one Member throwing it out?

Mr. JUMP. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There have been a good many requests made of other subcommittees of the Appropriations Committee along this same line.

Mr. JUMP. This one is contained in the Budget, as an estimate. Mr. CANNON. Do you expect this position to be permanent? Mr. JUMP. It should be. We have a very unsatisfactory situation. At the present time the only third officer we can call upon to function legally as an Acting Secretary is the Chief of the Weather Bureau. He sits over near Georgetown, but he is the only one who can come over and sign documents as the Acting Secretary of Agriculture.

Obviously, he can have very little idea of what these documents are for the reasons that the Secretary has mentioned whereby a man keeping in close touch with the work is hard put to it to digest what he is called upon to sign under present conditions. That is the weakness of our structure at this time. The reason the Chief of the Weather Bureau may sign papers as Acting Secretary is that he is a Presidential appointee. Aside from the Secretary and Assistant Secretary he is the only other Presidential appointee in the Department of Agriculture, and, consequently, no one else can legally function in the absence of the Secretary and Assistant Secretary.

Mr. CANNON. What is the salary that is proposed?

Mr. JUMP. $10,000, which is the same salary paid for similar positions in the State, Treasury, and War Departments. The Solicitor General in the Department of Justice, who exercises the same authority and rank, receives $10,000. I am anxious to have you look at this list of similar positions when you are ready to consider the estimate.

ESTIMATED SAVINGS IN CONSOLIDATION OF BUREAUS

Mr. SANDLIN. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary WALLACE. The committee will be interested, I am sure, in the consolidation of the Bureau of Entomology, the Bureau of Plant Quarantine, and the control and eradication work of the Bureau of Plant Industry. All of that work has been consolidated and is presented in the Budget as one organization unit, under the title of Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine. Three different bureaus are involved in that merger, and I think the consolidation means more effective administration, as well as a certain amount of economy. These combined groups in 1932 had an appropriation of $7,500,000, and for 1935 it is reduced in the Budget that you have before you to $2,800,000. This is a decrease of 62 percent. I simply mention that in passing.

APPOINTMENT OF NEW BUREAU CHIEFS

You will be interested in knowing also that there have been four new appointments of bureau chiefs since the last Budget hearings. Mr. Strong is the new Chief of the Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine. Mr. Ryerson takes the place of Dr. Taylor as Chief of the Bureau of Plant Industry, and Mr. Silcox succeeds Mr. Stuart as Chief of the Forest Service. Mr. Gregg has been nominated as the Chief of the Weather Bureau, and his nomination is before the Senate. It happens that a number of our bureau chiefs are reaching the retirement age, and there is a rapid turn-over at the present time.

Mr. CANNON. Have all of these new chiefs come up from the ranks? Secretary WALLACE. All except Mr. Silcox. Mr. Silcox comes from the outside.

Mr. JUMP. He was formerly in the Forest Service, serving through the various grades up to regional forester when he resigned some years ago.

Secretary WALLACE. He was connected with the Forest Service in the old Pinchot days for a number of years.