fore him, that the corrupt practice of that precedent. Were it not for the bribery did extensively prevail at the said rule upon which he was now taking his Election for the City of Cashel ? stand, a Prime Minister, supported by THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR an overwhelming majority, might beIRELAND (Mr. SULLIVAN) said, in re- come dictator of the House, and private ply, that the Report of the learned Members would be unable to enter upon Judge with regard to the borough of any business whatever except with his Cashel had not escaped his notice, and permission. The right hon. Gentleman it was his intention to give notice respect- might, however, stop him at any moment ing the late election as soon as the Minutes by granting that which he asked. He of Evidence were laid on the table. He felt unable therefore to give way, but he had reason to believe those Minutes would not detain the House at any would be presented in a very short time. length. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had promised that the question of local taxation should be dealt with; but it was difficult to see

SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

LOCAL TAXATION.-QUESTION.

how this promise could be carried out in a manner satisfactory to those most interested, if the promise made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to drag his Colleagues before the bar of public opinion perpetually until he had obtained a remission of £20,000,000 of Customs duties were carried out. If they were to look for a remission of £20,000,000 in the Customs duties to please him-if they were also to obtain a remission of local

£11,000,000-and if, in justice to the farmers of England, the duty on malt, now about £7,000,000 more, were to be remitted, those sums altogether would reach to a total of £35,000,000-so that he did not see much chance of that relief to the local taxpayer to which they were entitled. The great towns of England were awakening to the importance of the subject, and one important borough, represented by an hon. Gentleman opposite, was about to take action upon it. The question was, in his opinion, of quite as pressing importance as that of the Irish Church. There was a real grievance in the question of local taxation, while it appeared to him that there was no hardship in the question of the Irish Church.

SIR GEORGE JENKINSON said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, as the Government have granted to Scotland the inquiry which they have denied to the ratepayers of England and Wales, on the subject of local taxation, he will taxation-which now reached the sum of undertake to legislate at once on that subject, so that a remedy for the unequal and unjust mode of levying poor rates under the existing system may take effect during the present Session of Parliament; or, if not, whether he will now grant a Select Committee to inquire into the subject of the unequal incidence of the poor rates in England and Wales, with a view to facilitate a remedy being provided by legislation at the earliest available opportunity? He must, in the first place, express his regret at not being able to comply with the request of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, that he would postpone that Motion, and he would assure him that his refusal to comply with the request was made in no spirit of discourtesy towards the right hon. Gentleman, or in any want of respect to the House; but he had consulted a great many Friends in the House, and they had assured him that if he were in that case to establish the precedent of giving way it would be injurious to the interests of the private Members of the House, not only on that occasion, but upon others similar to it. Hon. Gentlemen even on the other side of the House might be glad in future that he had not established

MR. GLADSTONE said, that the hon. Baronet who had just spoken had laid down the somewhat formidable doctrine that it was desirable to interpose the settlement of the question of local taxation before that of the Irish Church. The hon. Baronet had, however, carried that doctrine into practice in so mild a manner that he could not complain of his having declined to accede to his request that the discussion upon this subject should be postponed till a future occasion. With regard to the immediate

purpose of the hon. Baronet, he thought | However, the principal answer he should it proceeded upon a misapprehension of give to the hon. Baronet would be to the real circumstances of the case. He remind him that when the question of appeared to think that an inquiry had local taxation was under discussion at an been granted with regard to the opera- early period of the Session, the evident tion of the Poor Laws in Scotland, which desire of many hon. Members was that had not been granted with regard to an inquiry into the subject should be England. That was far from being the made, not through the medium of a fact. The Committee which had been Committee of the House, but through appointed for Scotland was a Committee that of a Royal Commission, and that appointed to inquire into the operation what was undertaken by the right hon. of the Poor Laws for the purpose of as- Gentleman the President of the Poor certaining whether any, and if so, what Law Board and by himself, on the part amendments might be made therein. A of the Government, was that the whole Committee, with almost identical powers, facts relating to the question should be was granted with regard to England collected and brought together, and that, some few years ago upon the recom- as soon as the pressure of other subjects mendation of my right hon. Friend, would permit, the Government would be the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. prepared to propose such alteration in Villiers), who was then the President of the present law relating to local taxation the Poor Law Board, and that Com- as might appear to them, upon a careful mittee, having inquired into the matter, consideration of those facts to be necesmade a Report, which was laid upon the sary. Those hon. Members who suptable of that House, and which had be- ported the Motion to which he referred come the basis of subsequent legislation. had been pleased to express their satisTherefore, the inquiry which had been faction with that declaration, and he recently granted with respect to the believed that it was then generally underPoor Law of Scotland had already been stood that the engagement entered into granted and had taken effect as regarded by his right hon. Friend was accepted in England. The hon. Baronet appeared place of the demand for a Royal Commisto desire, not merely an inquiry into the sion. Upon one point there could be no operation of the Poor Law in England, misunderstanding-namely, that no debut also an inquiry into the manner in mand had been made for an inquiry by a which the rates were raised, which was Committee of that House. Under these a totally different matter; as different circumstances, he must say the Governas an inquiry into our army system would ment were of opinion that a Committee of be from an inquiry into the mode of that House to inquire into the mode levying taxes out of which the army was of collecting the rates in England and supported. The Committee which was Wales should not be granted; and that, sitting to inquire into the operation of undoubtedly, it was not in their power, the Poor Law in Scotland would act in whatever might be their desire, to legisthe main in the same sense, and within late at once on the mode in which local the same limitations, as the Committee taxation was raised in this country. which was appointed on the recommendation of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton. He had certainly been given to understand that the Scotch Committee had regarded it as being within their province to investigate some matters connected with the collection of the poor rates in Scotland; but, then, it must be recollected that the system of collection of the poor rates in that country was different from the English system, because in Scotland nearly every man was taxed for the relief of the poor on his whole means and substance, and that circumstance had given an indefiniteness to the law of poor rates which did not exist in the law of this country.

MR. NEWDEGATE observed that by his determination to procure an answer from Her Majesty's Government upon this subject the hon. Baronet (Sir George Jenkinson) vindicated the rights of independent Members. After the experience of yesterday, when the great party opposite were held in silence upon a measure, that the Prime Minister had declared to be of the highest importance, he thought it was time that hon. Members, who were opposed to the measure for the disestablishment and disendowment of the Irish Church should remind the Prime Minister that although he had a majority in that House those who sat opposite to him represented the

OBSERVATIONS.

majority of the English people. ["Oh!"] distinction between the cases of England He would only guess from the inarticu- and Scotland on the ground that in Scotlate mode in which hon. Members op- land the local taxation was levied upon posite expressed their opinions that the whole means of the ratepayer, and they dissented from that statement; but that, therefore, there was a difference his assertion was based upon figures between the assessment of the ratepayer contained in Returns, which had been in the two countries and the incidence made in accordance with the Orders of of local taxation in England, was the that House for the purpose of the Re- very point raised by the hon. Member form Bill, and from these figures it ap- for South Devon. Believing, therepeared, that those, who opposed the fore, that the question of the hon. Baronet Irish Church Bill did represent a con- had tended to remove a misunderstandsiderable, indeed, a large majority of ing as to what was to be expected from the English people. ["Question."] He the Government upon this subject, he hoped hon. Members opposite would not thought that the hon. Baronet in insistendeavour to silence others, because they ing upon its being answered, had only were reduced to silence themselves, or done his duty, and had rendered a serit would be necessary for those, who re- vice to the House. presented the majority of the English people to remind them that this was the SCOTLAND-PORTPATRICK HARBOUR. people's House of Representatives. The hon. Baronet was justified in the course he had pursued on another ground, which was the inordinate haste of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister in proceeding with the Irish Church Bill-a haste which might betoken anything, even a sense of guilt, and which was peculiarly unusual at this period of the Session, and such as he had never known attempted before during the long period he had sat in that House-this inordinate haste showed, at all events, that the right hon. Gentleman, in order to force forward that measure, was prepared to neglect other business, which was essential to the welfare of the country. The hon. Baronet, therefore, in putting this Question had done well to remind the Prime Minister, that there were other matters, which called for attention, and which the people of England expected would be undertaken bond fide by that House, if not by Her Majesty's Government, if they were to suppose, that the attention of the latter was totally absorbed by the Irish Church question. It was now clear, from the answer of the Prime Minister, that the incidence of local taxation was not a question, which the Government meant to consider, though that was the very question which was brought forward by the hon. Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes) with so much ability, and to which the answer of the Government they were considering, and would undertake it, was understood to apply. He understood from the language of the right hon. Gentleman that he raised a

MR. W. JOHNSTON said, he rose to call attention to the benefit of promoting a short sea passage between Ireland and Scotland, and the importance of maintaining Portpatrick Harbour in a satisfactory state, and to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into and report thereon. While he was anxious to meet the wishes of the First Lord of the Treasury, he felt bound, from the importance of the subject, to trespass for a short time upon the attention of the House. It was of great importance to the people of the North of Ireland, and to his constituents among the working classes of Belfast, who desired a short sea passage between Ireland and Scotland. The distance between Portpatrick and Donaghadee was only nineteen miles, and with suitable steamers the passage might be made in an hour and a half. The harbour of Portpatrick had been favourably reported upon by Sir John Rennie, the well-known civil engineer, in his report furnished to the Lords of the Admiralty in 1846. In consequence of a Treasury Minute of 1857, which was very favourable to the route by Donaghadee and Portpatrick, railway communication with those two places had been completed. Since 1856 a sum of £48,000 had been spent on harbour improvements, which would be wholly lost if the harbour were now abandoned. He did not want it adopted as a mail station, but still he hoped the House would not allow it to be disestablished by the sea and disendowed by the

Board of Trade. The advantage of the harbour would be seen in this, that last year a steam-packet company put on a steamer, which ran three times a week between the two harbours in the summer months, and though the steamer was not altogether suitable for the traffic, she carried in that time 8,000 passengers. The company were prepared, should Government give a favourable consideration to the question, to put on superior steamers this year. There were now two breaches in the pier; the outer breach took place in 1857, the inner breach took place in 1858, and it was the inner breach that rendered the harbour dangerous for traffic. It must be repaired if the harbour were to be accessible either for steamers or sailing vessels. A very small sum, from £1,500 to £2,000 would repair it and make the harbour safe. He knew the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had recently visited the place, and he appealed to him not to let this magnificent work of former Governments go to decay. If Portpatrick light were extinguished the result would be great danger to coasting vessels. He trusted that the Government would revoke their decision, and that they would grant the Committee for which he asked.

this

be an exception to his race upon occasion further than by repeating himself the same question, and quoting the answer he had himself received. That answer was-" Because you thus encourage the importation into Ireland of British trade, enterprize, industry, skill, and capital." This was, however, an historical question-but he would not refer the House back to the charmed year of 1660-and if he did revert for a moment to the year 1770, it was only to mention that from that year to 1846 the ferry between Portpatrick and Donaghadee was carried on with unsurpassed regularity, and it was discontinued then only because there were no railways down to the water's edge on either side of the Channel. That led to the establishment of the service between Holyhead and Kingstown. Sir Luke Smithett, however, a high authority on this subject, said that, in his opinion, the Portpatrick and Donaghadee route now possessed all the requisites necessary for a complete, efficient, speedy, and safe service if only steamers suitable to the port were placed on the station. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said-no doubt with truth-that £252,112 had already been spent upon the harbour. Of this large sum, £70,000 LORD GARLIES said, that he had had been spent upon new works on the been requested to second the Motion for north side since 1856, and it was at the the appointment of a Select Committee moment of the completion of those to report on this subject; but that he works, which would have made the harmust confess that he did not require bour perfect, that a series of unprecemuch solicitation from anyone, as the re- dented storms came and made on the establishment of this ferry between Great south side a breach in the pier which had Britain and Ireland had been the day-been erected in 1839. He could not dream of his life. He represented the help thinking it was penny-wise and county in which this harbour was situ- pound-foolish economy, at the moment ated, which was nearer to Ireland than of completing these works on the north any other county in Great Britain, and side, to allow the harbour to go to rack that being so, there was a great influx and ruin because a small breach had been of Irishmen. Now there were two made on the south side; and he could not classes of Irishmen-one, for whom he help thinking that there had been a prefelt no sympathy, whose cry was "Ire- judice among the authorities against land for the Irish ;' and the other, for this harbour. The right hon. Gentleman, whom he had the deepest sympathy, at the beginning of the Session, was who, to use their own naïve expression, against keeping up the light in this harsaid "It is to be a part of England we bour; but he said that, if it were shown want." But it might be asked him to be of utility to passing vessels, it should "How is Ireland to be made a part of be maintained. Since then Petitions had England by maintaining a harbour in been presented from Belfast, from the the South of Scotland?" Well! it was owners of thirty or forty sailing vessels the prerogative of Scotchmenor at of that port, and only yesterday a meany rate they assumed it to themselves-morial was presented to the President of to answer one question by asking an- the Board of Trade from above seventy other; and he (Lord Garlies) would not leading shipowners in Glasgow and