The CHAIRMAN. And the 24 district land offices in the States named are already occupied by the registers?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Those places are filled, but these land offices are performing no duties or functions with respect to grazing lands at the present time. That is, the 24 registers are not performing any functions with respect to the grazing of the public domain.

The CHAIRMAN. In your opinion, could they function and perform the duties set forth in Senate bill 2584 relative to the leasing of the public domain for grazing purposes?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. No; I do not think that they could perform their present duties and take on these additional duties in an efficient manner. As a rule they are either lawyers or men having some familiarity with public lands and public land laws. They have not only the duty of passing upon various applications and entries, but are hearing contests and arguments and also attending to moneys which are paid in. At the present time I think that the duties that are now vested in them are sufficient to occupy their time. Moreover, if I recall, the various duties that they are required to perform under the bill include going out into the field and acquainting themselves with conditions.

Senator ODDIE. How much do their duties involve going out into the field?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Well, I should think that to intelligently pass in the first instance upon these applications they would have to see the land, generally at least, Senator, and be able to form some opinion as to its character, condition, and value, and all that sort of thing.

Senator ŎDDIE. The forces have been cut so very drastically in the last year that I do not see how it is possible for them to leave their offices.

The

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I do not think so either. thought of the department was, I think, that if a grazing bill were enacted and the Secretary were allowed to choose he would prefer as field officers those whose duties do now carry them over the various parts of the public domain.

The field force, so-called, of the General Land Office is divided into districts. Some districts include more than one State, and some perhaps include one or two States. The force under the chief of the division is a mobile force that is circulating around. It was thought that an organization like that could probably perform these duties better than the registers.

Senator ODDIE. Some of the men who have been very necessary in these offices have recently been discharged by the department and have been compelled to go out and seek other employment. It would not be possible to get them back?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. There has been a very large reduction in the force; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What agency would you recommend, Judge Finney, other than that of the register of the local land office, to supervise the leasing of the ranges, that would have a direct contact with the range such as under the Forest Service, is known as the local forest supervisor?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I would favor the use of our force of field inspectors or special agents; I think they are called inspectors now. And if the men who are on the force at present are not qualified I would favor getting some men who are qualified to supervise this work.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you such a force in each public land State at this time?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; the entire public land area is divided into districts, with a chief of division in charge of a given district, which may include several States-one or two or three. He has under him a force of agents who move about from place to place. Some of them are stationed at the local land office, and others go out from headquarters. And we think that sort of force could be utilized in what supervision is necessary.

As I stated to this committee at its hearings last spring, I do not believe this is a supervision that would require all the time of this force. My thought was that after the grazing districts had been blocked out and leases made, with a certain tenure in the stockgrower of, say, 10 years, he is going to be interested in that range to the extent that he will take care of it pretty well himself and it will not need very much supervision; but matters may come up from time to time, and there should be some man or men available to send out there to look into matters and there should be a force that would be available to go out and look into matters on the request of the lessee or others and report back to the commissioner and the Secretary.

Senator ODDIE. Referring to section 5 of the Secretary's letter: In the State of Nevada there are about 55 million acres of public land. That area is, I think, equivalent to the area of the States of New York and New Jersey, or very close to that. You can see, Mr. Secretary, the absolute impossibility and impracticability of expecting the officers in the land office in Nevada to supervise that enormous area. It would be impossible.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; I think so.

Senator CAMERON. Do you consider that the men you now have in your general field division throughout the different States would be competent to pass on grazing problems? They have never had any experience along that line, have they?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Just broadly, I would say that some of them would be and some perhaps not. Of course, I can not undertake to tell you the qualifications of the individuals. Take myself, I do not pretend to be an expert on livestock matters, and yet I have herded cattle in Kansas and used to be able to guess the weight of a steer pretty accurately. I take it that some of our men, Senator, by reason of having been raised on the farms or ranches and by reason of their having traveled around over the grazing area of the West, have considerable general knowledge and familiarity with conditions in the stock industry. Some others possibly would not be qualified.

If the bill should pass and we were charged with the duty we would endeavor to select men who had some knowledge of the industry. We would not, for instance, put an expert on mineral

land law who had had no grazing experience in charge of grazing work.

The thought in this original bill which we drafted, and the thought of the department all the way through, as I understand it, was that if the Secretary were given by Congress some little latitude in utilizing the force or in determining the force, that he could build up out of the present forces, or by utilizing the positions at present authorized by law, a supervisory board that would function something like that of the Forest Service at the present time. The CHAIRMAN. I think that is what is contemplated in the billthat it will be necessary to have a local office, or some place where the contract is made. You will notice section 503 of S. 2584:

The Secretary of the Interior may for the purposes of Title II and the Secretary of Agriculture may for the purposes of Title III * in accordance with the civil-service laws, appoint such employees, and in accordance with classification act of 1923, fix the compensation, and make such expenditures (including expenses for personal services and rent at the seat of government and elsewhere, and for law books, books of reference, periodicals, and for printing and binding) as may be necessary officially to execute the provisions of each such title.

That is intended, of course, to give the Secretary ample authority to designate such employees as he deems necessary for the purpose of carrying out the intent and purposes of the act.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; that is all right; but the preceding part of the bill vests certain duties and powers in the registers, and of course that would limit the Secretary to that extent. The CHAIRMAN. All the powers vested in the register are, however, under the direction of the Secretary.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. It is under his general direction, but the register is designated by the bill as the officer who shall perform certain duties.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but under the direction of the Secretary; he has no power other than that given to him by the Secretary. Assistant Secretary FINNEY. We were discussing first, as I understood it, what officers should be given this local duty to perform. This does vest it in the register?

The CHAIRMAN. Under the direction of the Secretary; yes.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Of course this goes at it in a little different way than the ordinary land law is administered. For instance, in section 205 of the bill the register is given authority to determine certain things-grazing capacity, fees, inspections, etc., and to make rules and regulations.

Of course ordinarily under the public-land laws, as you all know, the regulations are made by the Secretary and carried out by the subordinate officers. This goes at it the other way around; the register makes the regulations. It is true, as stated in paragraph (c) of section 205, the register is so authorized under the direction of the Secretary, so the Secretary does have a directing power, but it goes at it in a little different manner than the ordinary law.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course the language could be modified. Assistant Secretary FINNEY., Yes; that is a matter of detail. The CHAIRMAN. You might say "The Secretary of the Interior is authorized to direct the register." You could state it either way,

that he is authorized under the direction of the Secretary, or the Secretary is authorized to direct.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes. I understood your first question, Senator, to relate to whether it was advisable to put the register in charge of this local work or some other person, and I stated that the duties of the present registers were such as to require practically all their time. I do not think it would be advisable to put them in charge of this work; I think it would be preferable to put them in the field division, with headquarters, of course, at each grazing district.

Senator ODDIE. Under the provision of the act there would be 148 officials having original jurisdiction over the allocation of grazing privileges and the issuance of permits therefor.

The CHAIRMAN. That includes the forest supervisors with the 24 registers.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes; 124 forest supervisors and 24 registers.

Mr. BOWDEN. Judge Finney, under the provisions of this bill the land that is placed in grazing districts is to be opened to entry under the public land laws. Those public land laws are administered through the office of the register, and if you are going to have an efficient system would it not be necessary to have all of the land information in one local land office?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. It is necessary, of course, to have a record in the local land office of all entries, filings, leases, and permits, and that is contemplated under all the bills, I take it. But it is not necessary that the registers should do the field work. That at the present time is not done by the registers; that is done by this mobile field force. However, there are records made of every filing or lease in the local land office.

Mr. BOWDEN. Where in the bill is there a requirement that the register do the field work?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Paragraph (c) of section 205. The register is authorized to determine the grazing capacity of any area in a grazing district for the purpose of fixing the grazing fees, and he is authorized to make inspections of the range.

Mr. BOWDEN. If the word "register 99 were omitted and the word "Secretary" put in, would that require the Secretary to do the field work?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. No; because it is generally understood that the Secretary acts through officials, but when you name a man at the bottom specifically I think the construction would be that he would be required to do it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Reading the bill as a whole, taking that section and then reading section 503, which authorizes and directs the Secretary to designate employees to carry out this work, and considering that the register only acts under the direction of the Secretary, would it not be the natural construction of the act that the register was merely the officer in whose name things were done and not the officer who did it?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I do not so construe the bill; no. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the purpose of section 205 in the act, then, and what is the purpose of the phrase "under the direction"?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. The purpose of 503 of the act is to permit the appointment of additional employees other than those named specifically in the act, I would say.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would they not naturally do the field work?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Oh, they might be clerks and accountants any employees engaged in the administration of the law. Mr. BOWDEN. And they might be field men, might they not?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. They might passibly be field men; yes. But, in my judgment, they could not perform the duties which are imposed on the register by this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. In paragraph (c) section 205, suppose we change the language so that it will read, "The Secretary of the Interior is authorized to direct the register" to perform the duties set forth in sub-paragraphs 1 and 2.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. That would mean the same thing, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Then there would be no question but what the Secretary was directing the register

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes, it would accomplish that. It would remove the uncertainty, perhaps, as to who was boss, but it would still impose the duty, I think, upon the register.

The CHAIRMAN. What officer could be substituted for the register? Considering that the direction emanates from the Secretary of the Interior, changing the phraseology of paragraph (c) of section 205 so that there would be no question but what it emanates from the Secretary, who has the sole power to direct, what officer would you say in the act that he should give such direction to?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I do not think the officer should be named in the act at all.

The CHAIRMAN. That is just where the difficulty comes in. I think the people are wanting to know, by an act of Congress, with whom they are to deal, just as the settler wants to know that he has to go to the local land office, and where the local land office is, and who is the local land officer. And if that is true, it is very necessary, if any acts shall be passed, that some officer be particularly designated to do this work.

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Then I think you should insert, in lieu of the word "register," "chief of field division."

The CHAIRMAN. You would have the chief of the field divisionthose are districts already located?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And there are already several chiefs?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I can not see that it makes any difference in the act whether you use the term "register" or "chief of field division " or any other officer within the Interior Department.

Mr. BOWDEN. Judge Finney, would you have any objection to this language: "That the Secretary shall designate an employee of the Interior Department to be in charge, under his direction, of grazing in each grazing district established "?

Assistant Secretary FINNEY. I do not see any particular objection to it. I think that would be all right, except that the Senator seemed to want to name specifically some officer.