same footing. A large population must always exercise greater control than a sparse population. Several of the counties, extensive in territory, but thinly settled, had no representation at all. A large county, densely settled, might have a large number of votes in the Legislature ; but, at least, one member should be given to each county. This principle was acted on in the eastern States, as could be seen by the following TABULAR STATEMENT. WHOLE NO. OF REPRESENTATION, STATES. EACH TOWN EACH COUNTY EACH TOWN OR COUNTY one one one one 481 one one seven one 134 one one not less than not less than may have more in pro128 New York, portion to population. 153 Maine, do. Massachusetts, do. N. Hampshire, do. Vermont, do. Connecticut, do. Delaware, do. 80 Maryland, four do. 134 Virginia, do. N. Carolina, two do. S. Carolina, two do. 142 Georgia, do. 49 Missouri, do. The other States are represented in proportion to population. Every State in the Union gave, at least, one representative to every distinct demarcation, whether denominated township or county. Every county in this State, under the Constitution of 1776, was entitled to one representative. Here, then, we had the example of our forefathers to sustain the principle which he advocated, and this example had not been departed from by the framers of the Constitution of 1790, and many of the counties had a very sparse population. If this had been found to be an unjust principle, in the operation of the Constitution of 1776, the framers of the Constitution of 1790, instead of giving one representative to each county, would have deprived the small counties of their representative. It may be said, perhaps, on the other side, that every county is represented. He admitted that nominally it was so; but, in fact, it was just the reverse. Every county had a distinct and separate community, looking to very distinct and separate objects. If the interests of the counties which are united for the purpose of representation, are not in unison, but in actual collision, what representation of the feelings and interests can be expected by the least influential county, with the larger one opposed to her? Measures hostile to her interests would be proposed by her own representative. The voice of the stronger county would be heard, and would prevail against her weaker neighbor. The voice of the county ought to be heard through the voice of the representative. And how could this be, when some of the representatives never saw the soil of the county which they represent. The counties of M'Kean, Potter, and Lycoming, were classed together at one time; but there never was a representative from M'Kean or Potter : the county of Lycoming always furnished the member, who had never set foot within the limits of either of the other counties which he represented. However well dis posed, therefore, he might be to serve these counties, he could not do them the justice to which their interests entitled them, because he could have no personal, and consequently, no accurate and intimate knowledge of their wants. This state of things was a reflection on the justice of the existing policy. He never knew the interests of a county furthered by one who had not been acquainted with his constituents. А nominal representative might go as far as he knew, for measures conducive to those interests, but without a personal knowledge, no man could do justice to his county. The most important wants of a county ought to be known to her representatives. What was the distinguishing feature in the policy of Pennsylvania ? It was to press forward with untiring energy and unabated zeal, in an onward march of internal improvements. If any particular branch of the State was possessed of peculiar facilities for canals, or other great works, could the policy of the State be fully and advantageously carried out without that knowledge of localities, which could only be obtained from the representative? "The march of the State might still be onward, but she would not be otherwise enabled to bring all her means into view, and to reap all the benefits from her spirit of enterprise to which she might be entitled. All the facilities of the State could never be known unless the representatives of the different counties were men of the soil. Only from such could the knowledge of all the resources of a county for improvement be obtained. If there were counties with a sparse population, ought not their claims to be heard in this Hall, where other counties contributed their influence to sanction and adopt the principle of improvement? Every county in the Commonwealth should be heard.' The wants and wishes of each should be communicated by a man who knows these wants and wishes. On important questions, involving the prosperity of all, the wishes of every part of the Commonwealth should be known. He would not ask to take any thing away from the other counties. But it was about as reasonable to call on a physician to prescribe for a disease he never saw, as to require of a representative of a district to provide for the wants of a county of which he had no knowledge. He would not take any representative influence from the older counties : but would enhance the number of representatives to one hundred and five; and these to be so distributed as that every county should receive a just and efficient proportion. His plan, therefore, would require four or five additional members to the House. In some of the large counties, there was one representative, and a considerable fraction over. He would add that fraction to other fractions, by which nothing would be taken from the old counties, which had one member for their maximum, while the smaller counties, would receive the benefit from the combined fractions. He would give the Whig counties their share, and have all fairly and equally represented. But the impolicy of yoking the wolf to the lamh, the populous counties to those of sparse population, must be obvious to all. He would do the populous counties entire justice, and take away from the others, at the same time, all cause of just complaint. During the seven years that Lycoming, McKean, and Potter, were in one district, the whole power of procuring a single measure for their benefit was taken out of the hands of McKean and Potter, because they were unable to prevent Lycoming from furnishing a representative during the whole time. A measure of this kind, therefore, was required to prevent any injustice being ; in every done to the weak counties by the powerful ones. If the large counties received their full amount of representation ought they to complain? He should think not. It was said if five members more be given to the small counties, they should be so distributed as to take them from the other counties, and that one half should be given to the North, and the other to the East and West. But it was not possible that the interest of any county could be endangered by a general increase of five representatives. It was clear beyond controversy that the balance of power would be great enough on the side of the populous counties, which would have one hundred members against five. He contended that every contiguous interest would be subserved; that the ties of a common, general policy, and the bonds of friendly feeling would be strengthened, by the adoption of the principle he desired to introduce ;: while no danger or inconvenience could result to any part of the Commonwealth. The principle which he advocated, had been carried out, not only in Pennsylvania, but in the General Government. Suppose, in reference to representation in Congress, it was to be required that there should be a basis of 232,000 to give two Senators, and 116,000 to give one Senator, what would be the result ? Applying the principle to the rates of population, five States of the Union would have but one Senator each, and four of the States would have no Senator. For the purpose of uniting the different branches, if they were allowed to incorporate, why not give just proportions to each, section of the Commonwealth? Inasmuch as his proposition would be doing the populous counties no injury, for the purpose of establishing a system founded on principles of abstract justice, let them come forward, and express their willingness to sanction and adopt it. There was no possibility of danger. There existed a fixed and settled feeling against cutting up old counties for the purpose of making smaller ones, which would prevent any considerable addition from being made to the number of representatives. The counties which he represented had been unsuccessful in obtaining improvements, and the consequence was, that their population was sparse, but give them the same opportunities of others, and you will see towns grow up as rapidly as in other counties; and how were they to obtain these improvements if their voice cannot be heard in the Halls of the Legislature? He conceived the claims of those counties to a representative each, was founded on justice, and no injustice would be done to any other county by granting them this. From the fact that the counties of Potter and M'Kean have had for some years no Representative in the Legislature, they have but few improvements, not that they are incapable of being improved, but because they were neglected, and turned off , as the unkind mother would turn off her offspring and throw it upon the world to provide for itself. These counties were left to take care of themselves, the fostering hand of the Commonwealth had never supported them, and the sun of Internal Improvements had never shone upon them. They have been neglected by your law makers, and have almost become the Siberia of Pennsylvania, and so must remain until they have an opportunity of having their wants made known to your Legislature. If, then, this Convention can do justice to the people of those counties, he would ask in all seriousness that this justice might be extended to them. Mr. STERIGERE was decidedly in favor of the principle the gentleman proposed if he understood it; and he thought it was founded in justice and good policy, and he wished, however, to put it upon still broader grounds. This principle had the sanction of almost every State in the Union ; and it also had the sanction of the Constitution of 1790, and of 1776 ; all the counties then organized, were entitled to a separate representation. He thought, the amendment should cover broader grounds than that proposed by the gentleman; and with this view he submitted the following proposition, as a substitute for the one proposed by the gentleman from M'Kean: “SECTION 4. In the year one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight, and in every seventh year thereafter, an enumeration of the taxable inhabitants shall be made in such manner as shall be directed by law. The number of the representatives shall at the next session of the Legislature, after making such enumeration, be fixed by the Legislature and apportioned among the city of Philadelphia, and the several counties as nearly as may be, according to the number of taxable inhabitants in each, and shall never be less than eighty, nor more than one hundred. Each county now erected, shall have at least one representative, but no county shall hereafter be erected, unless a sufficient number of taxable inhabitants shall be contained within it to entitle them to one representative, agreeably to the ratio which shall then be established. No two, or more counties shall be connected to form a district, nor shall any county entitled to one representative, or more, be allowed an additional representative on any number of its inhabitants less than one half of the one hun dredth part of all the taxable inhabitants of the Commonwealth”. Mr. STERIGERE said—this amendment proposed an enumeration to be taken in 1838, and he had proposed that time, on the presumption that the Constitution would be adopted in the present year, which they would know before they adjourned, and if it would not be adopted this year, they could change the time. His amendment was more specific than that of the gentleman from M'Kean, inasmuch as it provides for an apportionment to be made on the next year after the enumeration should be made, and it proposed that every county now erected should be entitled to at least one representative. It also provides that no new county shall hereafter be erected, unless it embraces a sufficient representation to entitle it to one representative. At the time the old Constitution was adopted, this would not answer, because of the vast space of territory comprised in some of the counties. This, however, was not the case now. It would also have a tendency to guard against abuses arising from fractional parts of representation which may exist in some of the counties. Without further remark, he would submit it to the committee, trusting that it would be adopted. Mr. HAMLIN thought the proposition he had suggested covered the whole ground. With regard to that part in relation to new counties, he believed a committee had been raised for the express purpose of taking into consideration that subject, and when that committee reported, he thought we could act more understandingly on this subject. With regard to the limitation of representatives to one hundred, he had no idea that it would be adopted by the body, as each one was averse to having the number of representatives in his county reduced. He thanked the gentleman for his suggestion, but he did not think the course proposed would. be adopted, because he did not believe that any gentleman would allow 6 his representation to be cut down. He thought the matter of requiring new counties to have a sufficient representation to entitle them to one representative was correct enough ; but he hoped the Convention would first take the question on his proposition, and if that should be rejected, then he would thank the gentleman to bring forward his. He had no objection to the gentleman having his proposition considered, but he trusted the two would be acted upon distinctly and separately. Mr. STERIGERE said he believed there was a feeling prevailing throughout the whole Convention against increasing the number of representatives, and he himself should always vote against it. He did not apprehend the difficulty of getting gentlemen to support this, from the large counties, and he did not believe any injustice would be done, because the fractions in many of the counties, he considered, would make up for the counties which would be entitled to representatives under this proposition. With relation to that part of the proposition which the gentleman had said could be acted upon hereafter, he had only say that this was the section to which it appropiately belonged, and if we did not get it through now, he doubted whether we would get it through at all. Mr. Hamlin said if the gentleman would increase the number of representatives to one hundred and five, he would accept of it as a modification of his proposition. Mr. STERIGERE could not do this, because he did not believe it would be sanctioned by either the Convention or the people. Mr. STEVENS said, although the principle asserted by the gentleman from M'Kean (Mr. HAMLIN) appeared to be perfectly correct, yet he did not take the proper mode to carry it fully into effect. This principle ought to be carried out to the fullest extent, but he did not think it was possible to increase the number of representatives. He believed with the gentleman from Montgomery, that there was a decided feeling against this increase; and he believed the House of Representatives was sufficiently numerous, and ought not to be increased. He would, therefore, suggest to the gentlemen, whether it would not be more just to the small counties and the whole people of the State, that the representatives in the new counties should be increased, and that some of the over-grown counties should be diminished. In a representative body like that of the House of Representatives, there were other interests to be represented besides numerical strength. It was true, that every person paying a tax ought to be represented, but it did not follow, nor was it true in principle, that representation ought to be in proportion to taxation. Every person paying a tax should have some person to represent him, but as in the county of Philadelphia, he did not think they should be represented either according to numbers or to property. That wide spread communities should have a representative he admitted to be correct, but in order to effect this object older communities should not have a repretation in proportion. He would, therefore, suggest to the gentleman from M'Kean, to modify his amendment so as to leave the number of Representatives as they stand, at present, and providing that each county have at least one, and that no city or county should have more than six. This would more effectually protect the interests of the farming classes from the influence of those large manufacturing towns and commercial cities, which is being exerted so unjustly in this Commonwealth. |