541,850 534,390 639,100 565,430 35,380 1823. 285,500 385,800 235,360 415,660 1825. 1826. 75,520 559,660 342,500 95,000 Taken for home consumption 1817. 1818. 1820. 1821. 60,100 27,540 52,600 113,000 307,700 353,700 406,700 412,500 417,500 432,600 490,900 491,650 354,320 General import at the close of each year. bill of 1819 was the only cause of that distress. He was sure that the abettors of that doctrine had not examined it carefully, or cautiously weighed its consequences. The capital which would stimulate the industry of the country must be the savings of individuals, and he would ask what industrious man would save if he was thus to be robbed of his earnings at the mere caprice of the legislature? (Hear, hear.) If any particular plan were broached for enabling the currency to more effectively perform all the legitimate functions of a curreucy, he would give it his best consideration; but he earnestly hoped that no legislature would be found wicked enough to abuse its control over the currency of the state, and to attempt to force prices either higher or lower than they would otherwise be, by an abuse of its legislative power. (Hear). Mr. COBBETT: The hon. Member said before he proceeded to make one or two observations on the motion substantively before them, he thought it as well to bestow a passing notice on the doctrine of the great sage who had just addressed the House, and of whom he (Mr. Cobbett) had the lucky honour of being a constituent. According to that doctrine, it mattered little whether they legislated or not in reference to the currency; for, said the hon. Representative of the wisdom of the city of London, prices are not at all affected by the state of the currency, being "wholly a question of supply and demand." How did the hon. Gentleman persuade himself that men had been asleep all this time since the peace? Every person recollected fall of prices of wihch that prices were high ou the passing of the the hon. Member complained was owing to the celebrated bill of the celebrated Baronet market being over-stocked-not to the bill of beside him; and every person also knew— 1819. A word or two in conclusion, in refer- and, if he did not, ought to know-that they ence to the hon. Member's proposition to fell so rapidly and tremendously on the passplace our monetary system on a different basis ing of that measure, that the right hon. from the present. He trusted that the House Baronet (Sir R. Peel) himself got frightened, would not for a moment sanction so monstrous, and out came the Small-note Bill of 1822. so immoral a proposition (hear, hear), which Immediately prices rose, and all things went would be neither more nor less than a viola- on gallantly till the mad doings of 1825 and tion of all existing contracts; a tax; a rob- 1826 led to another suppression of the 17. bery of all creditors. (Cheers). Were the notes, with another consequent and inevitable House to sanction the hon. Member's propo- fall of prices. On the passing of the Smallsition, it would be acting the part of the un-note suppression Bill of 1826, he had petitioned just steward in the Gospel "5. So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? "6. And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. "7. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, Án hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore." This is the sum and substance of the hon. Member's proposition (hear, hear), and he trusted integrity no less than policy would repudiate it. (Cheers). But the hon. Member told them that the change of the currency was the only remedy for the distress which prevails among the working classes, as the that House, telling it that while he rejoiced that the functions of coining were resumed by the monarch, yet that as sure as fire burned, if they passed that bill without reducing taxes to the standard of 1792, ruin and universal misery would be the consequences. They passed the bill without the concomitant measures, and ruin and misery were now stalking in the land. And when the hon. Member for Whitehaven called upon them to stop this ruin and misery, by retracing the steps which engendered it, they were told by the Member for London, that to do so would be a rubbery, and acting like the unjust steward in the gospel. Curious, indeed! His hon. Representative could see no effect produced on prices by lessening the quantity of paper by Peel's Bill-no robbery there; all 225 27TH APRIL, 1833. was then the work of accumulated stocks; other upon that bench, ever since I can rebut, when the hon. Member for Whitehaven collect; and, amongst all the fallacies by asks to augment the quantity, then my hon. which mankind have deceived themselves, Representative cries out robbery, taking away never was there a greater fallacy than this. Strange For, suppose the population to continue to be from every debt half its amount! political philosophy, that comes out of the the same; suppose the tax on sugar, for incity! They were told by my hon. Represent- stance, continue to be the same in rate; ative, as a reason for refusing the present suppose the general taxes of the country to be inquiry, that the comforts and happiness of all at once, prodigiously augmented; then the people had increased, because the con- great numbers of the sugar consumers must sumption of the comforts aud necessaries of be compelled to do without sugar; but the life had increased. But how was the conclu- quantity of sugar consumed, upon the whole, sion arrived at? My hon. Representative will be the same or greater perhaps; for, in founded it on the fact, that the taxes on those the same proportion that you take away the articles of consumption had increased-that means of cousuming sugar from the industrious And, what is more, tea, is, the revenue derived from those taxes. This classes, you augment the means of idlers to was a dangerous fallacy, and therefore ought consume sugar! to be exposed. If the hon. Representative sugar, tobacco, and coffee, are not absolutely had inferred that because the taxes on sugar, necessaries of life; aud the industrious classes coffee, &c., were more productive now than want the necessaries of life first; so that the formerly, that therefore the people who paid more you impoverish and render the working those taxes were happier and better off than classes miserable by taxation, the more you hitherto, it followed that the more taxed a add to the means of the idlers to cousume people was the better and the happier they these comforts, as they are called; and, thereHear). He fore, you have increasing misery and increasmust be. (No, no, aud said yes that was the hon. Gentleman's ing taxation at the same time. And, thus, the doctrine. He argued that because there political philosophy of my honourable reprewere more taxes there was more consumption sentative is disposed of, rather unceremoni -and because more consumption, more com- ously, perhaps, when it is considered that he Mr. Cobbett fort and happiness; and what was this but brings it from that mass of wisdom which declaring that the more taxed a people was, exists in the city of London. the happier and the better off they were? theo, coming to the main subject before the (No, no, and a laugh). But a tax might House, said he would vote for the motion of be increasing in amount of productiveness the hon. Member for Whitehaven. He difwhile the people who paid it might be in-fered from the hon. Member in many of his creasing in misery, and that because they views; but that was not the ques ion. All paid that very productive tax. This might be that the hou. Member proposed was inquiry, illustrated thus: Suppose sugar were the and unless that inquiry were assented to by article of consumption thus taxed, and sup- the House, the people would be dissatisfied. pose the consumers of it were partly soldiers. The noble Lord, to be sure, said that inquiry Suppose there were 100,000 of these sweet- would throw the people into alarm and fright, toothed consumers now, the nation who was but it was strauge if that should be the result taxed to support this large army might be of an inquiry into the cause of their distresses, oppressed aud sinking under the weight of with a view to discovering au efficient remedy the tax, and yet, as the tax went to pay for for them, and to ascertaining whether they were connected with what was expressly called sugar, the consumption and the fiscal revenue derived from it might be great and flourishing, the "tampering with the currency." The while the people who paid the soldiers were advocates of that inquiry were not bound to The idle con- adopt the particular view of the hon. proposer. hurrying to destruction. sumer-the droue in the hive-might be He agreed with him as to the distress, but difthriving under the system which was lead- fered with him as to the proper remedy. Things ing the industrious bees to misery and starva- were come to this pass, that they must either tion. This is a matter of great importance, puff up their currency to the level of their exthis tea and sugar answer to all the complaints penditure or cut down their expenditure to the "If level of their means. The hon. Member was of distress. These philosophers say, there be a tax upon certain commodities; if for puffing up the currency; his (Mr. Cob→ the population of the country remain the same bett's) remedy was to cut down the expenfor years; if the rate of the tax remain the diture. He had some right to speak on the same; if the gross amount of the tax continue effect of the Small-note Suppression Bill of to be the same; then the quantity of the com- 1826, for he had predicted its calamitous efmodities consumed must be the same; and, fects. Hon. Members greatly deceived themthat, therefore, all these circumstances being selves if they thought these effects were at an in existence, the comforts and enjoyments of end, and if the worst remained not behind. the people must continue to be as great as they He had a'so predicted the effects of the were when the tax was first laid on." This has bill of 1819, and pointed out the absurbeen the answer to every allegation of exist-dity of Mr. Baring's opinion, so ostentaing distress; this has been the standing an- tiously put forward at the time-uamely, swer by all those who have succeeded each that the inconvenient consequences of the bill' would be temporary, and wholly The whole expense of the £1,985,842 0 0 There is now one commissioned officer to In 1792, Admiralty and Navy Boards £58,000 The half-pay, allowances, and pen- .1,625,603 As much as the whole navy in 1792, all but 359,8797. The wages of 22,500 sailors and marines (including officers) for a year, 687,3751. 113 of the privy councillors (leaving out royal family and bishops) receive 650,000l. a year. That was the way that he had been made poor, that was the way in which our substance was wasted. If, since the peace of 1814, our affairs had been managed as they were in the year 1792, we should have paid, in taxes, 216,000,000l. of principal money, less than we have paid since the peace; and, including interest, here is a sum of 400,000,000Z. of money. Half the debt might thus have been paid off by money that has gone into the pockets of the aristocracy, after being screwed out of the flesh and bones of the people. He would ask Ministers to defend, if they could, the estimates of the present year. How was it that we had 110 admirals promoted since the peace, while Mr. Pitt had only 44 altoge ther, to meet the combined fleets of France and Spain, and the armed neutrality of the North? How came it that not less than 413 officers had been raised to the rank of postcaptain since the peace, unless-it was right that it should not be longer blinked-that Lord Grey's two sons might be put over the heads of men who had served their country before either of them was born. (Murmurs). Oh, he supposed that was not fashionable, not good manners. (Oh, oh, and hear). He begged their pardon for letting the truth out thus uufashionably-(great laughter); but he was sorry it was too true. (Continued langhter). Was not the whole system a system by which the aristocracy helped themselves out of the pockets of the poor? Look at the half pay and pension estimate of the navy-1,625,000l.; within 300,000l. of the cost of Mr. Pitt's whole naval force. What he (Mr. Cobbett) wanted was that the expenditure should be cut down to that of 1792. The hon. Member for Whitehaven said, "Do justice to the people of England; cut down the expenditure, or raise up the money;" and he was perfectly right. (Hear). The hon. Baronet had laid before the House an estimate of the wages of 22,000 sailors and marines, O with their officers, for one year, amounting to 687,0001. Now, there were 113 privy councillors, who sacked 650,000l. a year of our O money-as much as the wages of all the sea44 men and marines belonging to the navy, offi170 cers and all. And there was a list of women 622 pensioners, which swallowed up more than all 1,684 their pay, victuals, and other necessary expenses. (Hear). Those were the things the people wanted remedied. They did not un 1,819,460 0 422,001 0 £4,226,943 0 The interest of the debt was £9,000,000 0 0 diture ........ Army Orduance. £14,879,611 The interest of the debt... £28,000,000 0 ..... .... ... Made since the peace, 110 admirals. 413 captains. 0 229 27TH APRIL, 1833. been by error; so said he (Mr. Cobbett) that would lead to national plunder. The ques- the derstand nice questions of political economy; they were too refined for them; but they said, why not bring down the expenditure to that of 1792? He did not wish the debt to be wiped off, though the right hon. Baronet (Sir Mr. RICHARDS said, he did not mean to J. Graham) had proposed to deduct 30 per Flis plan cent. from it (hear); but he repented of that. follow the hon. Member for Oldham in his (A laugh). Now, as to the ordnance esti-excursive and amusing speech. mates; of all accounts he had ever seen, never had he met with such a mass of confusion; they were not worthy of the name of estimates. Members, if they wanted to find anything, must look for days; what they meant he defied any rational man to say. That was not the way they made out accounts in 1792.-called upon the Government and that House Look at the estimates of 1792: there was no Jumping of names, but each individual person was set out at full length; that was the form of the accounts before the vile and false Whigs came to drive poor Pitt into a war. He should only say of the War-office accounts, that if the late right hon. Secretary did not keep his at Chiswell-street better than in Downing-street, they must be in a sad way. There were in the account of the Secretary at War 214 persons who had retired from office -retired in the department of the Secretary atWar-who received 51,000l. a-year for life; he hoped they had good constitutions. (A laugh). Those 214 persons had all been clerks and employés at the War-office, in which there were only 36 persons (in actual employ); and yet 214 persons had retired from it with pay for lives. That was no trifle to be sweated out of the bones of the people of this country. No reasonable man could say it was right for a person just to walk into the office, pick his teeth for half a year, and then retire. The noble Lord would not let him (Mr. Cobbett) have names-he wanted the names of the dis. tributors of stamps. (Question). He wanted to show the robbery that had been committed on the people of England in these retired allowances; but if he could not have the names, he must state them as he believed them to be. If our affairs had been managed since the peace of 1814 as Pitt did in 1792, they would have paid every farthing of the interest of the debt; they would have kept the national faith-they would not budge from that they would have paid all the taxes, and, besides paying them, they would have paid off 216,000,000l. of debt; calculating the interest, they would have paid off 400,000,00nz.; and if the aristocracy had been taxed in stamps as the people were, they would have paid off 600,000,0001. of the debt.-(Oh, oh !) | Could any one gainsay that? He approved of going into the committee moved for by the hon. Member for Whitehaven, not because he agreed with him about the remedy, but thinking that inquiry was quite proper. It was admitted by all that there had been a robbery; somebody must have committed it. It was admitted that many persons had been ruined; who was answerable for it? All said that the mischief had been done, that a wrong had been inflicted; the noble Lord said it had to institute an inquiry. The noble Lord oppo- employment for capital. (Hear). He agreed tical experience which must always give with Mr. Musket in thinking that the depre- weight to what he said. He was not surprised ciation of the currency had at one time been that the hon. Member for Knaresborough had fifty per cent. That being so, the country was complained of the manner in which the mo robbed to the extent of 100,000,000l. from tion had been met, for he seemed to imagine the depreciations of the latter years of the that the hon. Mover might engraft on a mowar alone. How then could the noble tion for one purpose another purpose entirely Lord accuse his hon. Friend (Mr. Attwood) of opposite to it. It was impossible that the fraud and robbery? He only wished to restore House could consider that it was now called to those who had been robbed that which had upon to decide any question, but whether or been taken from them. What was the state not it would confirm or negative a proposal of the country? Were the nobility and the to depart from the standard or estimate of landed gentry as secure as they used to be? value as hy law established. This was the Did they not feel that the discontent and dis- question which was now openly and nakedly tress of the people might turn to disaffection? before the House, the question on which the He hoped it would not. What had led to the country looked for the decision of the House : revolution of 1830 in France? Distress; and and he did anticipate from what had passed in distress now made the people of France ready that debate, that an end would now be given for another change of dynasty. That morning to the agitation of the subject, an agitation several tradesmen had called upon him at his which he entirely concurred with the hon. residence in Chelsea. One was a grocer.Member who spoke last in considering as (Laughter). It was no laughing matter. The paralyzing the trade of the country, and grocer told him that now he did not take so which, if allowed to continue, would be atmuch money in the course of the whole week tended with the most disastrous consequences. as he took during the war on a Saturday The whole question was depreciation or no night. And what did the ironmonger say?- depreciation. The hou. Member who had (Continued laughter). He wanted nothing but introduced the motion had dwelt most largely attention from that House, and he thought on the distress of the country, and he had his subject ought to command it. As a new endeavoured to gain the support of those who member of the House, he had no character differed from him as to the remedies, but still for wisdom to lose in that House.- (Hear, agreed with him as to the existence of dishear, and laughter). He was no rhetorician, tress. He feared that distress must exist in like his right hon. Friend, the hon. Barouet some degree in this and in every other coun(Sir R. Peel); but he knew the integrity of try on all occasions and at every period; and his hon. Friend, the Member for Whitehaven that it did exist even at the most prosperous (Mr. M. Attwood), whom he had known ever time few men he thought would deny. But since he went to school with him. The iron- this was not the position of the hon. Member. monger told him that one-half of the persons The hon. Gentleman had stated that the disin his business were out of employment; and tresses of the country at the present moment the baker saw with dismay the increasing dif- were unprecedented in the annals of its ficulties of his customers to purchase bread. trade; that every branch of trade was rapidly He maintained that the standard was no verging on ruin; that the landlord was longer what it had been. From 1797 to 1819, ruined; that the farmer was in a state of as the House know, the mines of South Ame- bankruptcy, and that the tradesman was rica were less productive than they had been about to close his concerns; and that manubefore, and yet during that period, more gold facturing capital which had been invested and silver had been used in watches and any time back was now reduced to little trinkets than was ever the case before. He had more than nothing. This was the position seen placards over the whole of this town with of the hon. Member for Whitehaven, but the words "Run for gold;" and what he from this position he must beg leave most wished to know was, whether the monetary decidedly to dissent. Although there might system of this country was to be dependent be, and unfortunately there did prevail upon the tender mercies of any agitator or distress among certain classes, he still bemalignant disturber? His plan was that Irish lieved, or was rather convinced, that the conbank notes and English country notes should dition of the country was very far indeed from be payable, not in gold, but in Bank of Eug- what the hon. Member had described. In land notes. He would then have one-pound spite of the documents which the hon. Memnotes issued by the Bank of England, and ber had brought forward he should beg leave gold payable only in ingots of 257. value. Thus to advert to a document which was in his posseshe would only have gold in London, and in no sion, and which his position in the country had other part of the country. This was Mr. Ri-enabled him to obtain, With respect to the cardo's plan, not his; and Mr. Ricardo had said that the Government had adop'ed his errors, but had not followed his plan. He should vote for the motion of his hon. Friend. Mr. P. THOMSON congratulated the House that the hon. Member who had just sat down had brought to bear on the subject that prac poor-rates, which had been taken as the test of the real condition of the poor, he would show that the payments for the last ten years were much smaller than they had been during the ten years immediately preceding. The total amount of poor-rates paid in England and Wales during ten years, to the year 1821, |