The CHAIRMAN. If it were so inclined. Prof. JOHNSON. I believe the chairman is correct, that if we are going to do it for either we will do it for the coastwise ships only. Senator SIMMONS. If we were probably going to do what for either? Prof. JOHNSON. If we are going to exempt either the coastwise shipowners or the owners of our ships engaged in foreign trade from canal tolls, we will probably exempt the coastwise trade. Senator SIMMONS. But you have not meant to say that by repealing the act exempting coastwise trade that the Government would be foreclosed hereafter as to its policy as to that trade? Prof. JOHNSON. I would say no. It leaves the interpretation of the treaty open to diplomatic negotiation, I presume. The CHAIRMAN. You said a while ago it would establish a precedent which would extend to overseas trade. Do you wish to correct that? Prof. JOHNSON. No; I wish to stand on my statement. The CHAIRMAN. Do you stand on both answers? Senator CRAWFORD. But Congress passes one statute exempting vessels in the coastwise trade from the payment of tolls, and then the President of the United States comes before Congress and makes the declaration that in his judgment that law so passed violates the express provisions of the treaty between this Nation and Great Britain. Immediately thereafter, and acting upon this initiative taken by the President, Congress repeals that statute. Now, by doing so, and without any express reservation or declaration, does not Congress put the United States in the position and in the attitude of having taken the view that the President declared when he gave his opinion to the world that the presence of that law did violate the express terms of the treaty, and shall we not be greatly weakened, at least in our position, should we some time in the future desire to extend this privilege to vessels engaged in coastwise trade? The CHAIRMAN. You say in the coastwise or overseas trade? Senator SIMMONS. I do not think the Senator in his question quite fully states the position of the President. While the President in his message expressed the opinion that the exemption violated the treaty, he also said, without raising that question, that there are conditions, in substance, that make it advisable to repeal this treatyI mean this act and he did not ask for the repeal solely on the ground that he thought it violated the treaty. He merely expressed his personal opinion about that. He asked it upon the ground that he thought it was bad economic policy and upon the ground that he thought our relations between this and other foreign countries made it wise to repeal the act without reference to whether it violated or did not violate the treaty. The CHAIRMAN. I do not know whether either Senator fully and impartially states the attitude of the President. My recollection is the President said, right or wrong, we should do this. Senator CRAWFORD. But here is the situation from which we can not escape, that there is a debate going on, not only in Congress but everywhere, not only in this country but in other countries, a debate over the question of whether or not this Government can exempt these vessels from the payment of tolls without viclating the express terms of the treaty. Now, professedly we are very sensitive about that question and unless we can sustain ourselves, we do not care to be put in a position of violating our honor, and in this very prominent way the question is brought before Congress and forced upon its attention, and as a result of it, without any modified declaration or anything of that sort, Congress repeals that statute. What position does that put us in? Whether the President made his declaration and put other conditions around it or not, the fact that he takes the bold and unrestricted position of repealing the statute with no declarations accompanying it seems to me puts us in the position of backing down, directly admitting that we got our foot into it, and had better undo what we have done. The CHAIRMAN. I assume this is merely an observation for the record and not for the professor to answer? Senator CRAWFORD. I should like to have his opinion. He is our general expert. Senator THOMAS. No; he stated expressly in the beginning that he only wanted to discuss the economic conditions. Senator SIMMONS. This debate grew up over a question I asked of the professor. I am not through. Prof. JOHNSON. As I stated at the beginning, I am here to express an expert opinion, if you call it such, of the economic effect of the exemption of coastwise tolls, not to discuss broad questions of policy that Congress must determine. Senator SIMMONS. I understood the professor to say in the beginning that he did not propose to express his views to the committee with reference to whether this violated the treaty or not, except there might be views connected with the economic effect of exempting coastwise traffic from tolls, and he has adhered to that, but I thought probably the doctor inadvertently had been led into an admission which I did not think he meant to make, that the repeal at this time and under the conditions The CHAIRMAN. Pardon me; he was surprised into the admission. Senator SIMMONS. I said I thought it was made inadvertently. I did not know that he had made it, but I assumed from your question that he had. My purpose in asking the question was to ask the professor if he meant to answer the question that by repeal of the conditions which exist this Government would foreclose its right, if it has one under the treaty, hereafter to change its policy. Prof. JOHNSON. Let me answer again, as I have attempted to answer before, that I do not think, theoretically, that the Government closes its case by repealing the tolls-exemption clause, but I do agree with the chairman that we are not at all likely, after having decided not to exempt the owners of the coastwise ships from the payment of tolls, to pass an act exempting the tolls to the owners of the American ships in our foreign trade. Senator SIMMONS. I should like to ask you one or two general questions which I have noted here. I want to ask I want to ask you if you could give the committee any information with reference to the difference between the rates on ocean traffic or over-sea traffic, and the rates on coastwise traffic. Prof. JOHNSON. No; I should have to compile that information. Senator SIMMONS. Could you compile it and give it to the committee. Prof. JOHNSON. I should rather not attempt it. I should be very glad to do it, but I must confess to being a busy man. Senator SIMMONS. The reason I should like to have you do that is I understood you had given very close and exhaustive study to these rate questions. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Simmons, if you will pardon me, I think that is a request we made of Mr. Chamberlain yesterday, the Commissioner of Navigation, and I think he is to furnish that. Senator SIMMONS. I think Mr. Chamberlain told us he had not given any particular study to that question and Prof. Johnson has given it very close study. Prof. JOHNSON. Whoever secures that information will have to collect the rates from the steamship companies. I think without doubt that the files of the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries now contain a large number of coastwise and over-seas rates. Those files are, of course, subject to the control of the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries of the House. If I were to attempt to carry out your request, I should have to enter upon a somewhat laborious investigation, which I could not promise to undertake with the other obligations that are ahead of me. Senator SIMMONS. I am very sorry. Now, Professor, can you give the committee any information with reference to the difference in railroad rates and in water rates, or rather the rates in our coastwise trade? Prof. JOHNSON. My report of 1912 on Panama Traffic and Tolls, in chapter 4 contains certain tables comparing the rates by rail between the seaboards and by water by the American-Hawaiian Line and by the line by way of Panama. Senator SIMMONS. Can you state those briefly for us so that they may go into the record? Prof. JOHNSON. If you care to have them; certain tables selected by me had better be included in the record. Senator SIMMONS. I will ask that you mark them and give them a number. Prof. JOHNSON. They are tables found on pages 64 to 72 of the report, as follows: C. 4) |