of his neighbours through the medium of one of these Commissions, and to his surprise it only cost him £9 or £10, and his neighbour the same; but it cost the country £200. Looking at the large extent of acreage, and the great value of the property dealt with, and the great advantages derived by parties from the facilities with which the business was done, he thought such a state of things ought not to be tolerated-that the public should continue to bear the expense. In the case of the Charity Commission, he was endeavouring to open a door for a much larger question

namely, that of the charities themselves. bearing their fair share of the public burdens like any other property. As things were at present, there was a mass of property, amounting to £3,000,000 a year, one-half of which tended to do more harm than good. If the trustees could

he showed that that Commission had en- it did not benefit the public generally or tailed on the country an expenditure very the interest of the general tax payer; and little short of £250,000. The Commis- if a man thought he could get a larger sion was appointed to inquire into the price for his property by obtaining an inde charities, ascertain of what they consisted, feasible title through the intervention of this and how they were dispensed, and the re- office, he ought to pay for it. Or the office sult appeared in thirty-eight volumes, which might be attached to one which realized a were in the Library, and which showed that surplus over expenditure like the Middlethe charitable income of the country was sex Registry Office. Some time back he at that time very nearly £2,000,000 ster-effected an exchange of property with one ling. In 1857 the property of the charities had so much increased in value that the revenue amounted to £2,400,000 per annum, and now it amounted to £3,000,000. The value of their personal property alone was £10,000,000, and their real property was scattered in all parts of the kingdom, and was increasing rapidly in value, because much of it was situated in the vicinity of large towns and of this metropolis. Persons were continually leaving money for charitable purposes, and by an Act recently passed trustees might relieve themselves from all trouble and responsibility by handing over charitable funds to the Charity Commissioners. At the same time the expenses of the Commissioners were increasing from £18,000 to £20,000, and if the country bore these expenses, they would go on increasing. These charities in many instances-the Tancred charity, for example-demoralized not manage the property themselves, or a neighbourhood; and instead of supplementing them, as we were now doing practically, by an annual grant, we should make this property, in the usual way, bear its own burdens. The only mode of grappling with the national expendi- MR. CHILDERS said, he begged to ture was by attacking some particular second the Motion. He thanked the hon. Department, or item, and saying, "That Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney) ought at once to be ended." General de- for having again brought the question clamation was of no use, and it seemed to before the House. He entirely agreed him that these Commissions were fair sub- with his hon. Friend that the only way in jects for reduction. If maintained at all which they could arrive at a satisfactory they should bear their own expenses, and solution of these questions, in the absence the State should not be called upon to con- of any action by the Government, was by tribute a sum amounting practically to an hon. Member who had a perfect know£70,000 or £80,000 per annum for their ledge of the subject, stating to the House support. Another of these Commissions where the weak points lay. In this matwas that for the Registration of Titles, the ter he was bound to say he had some object of which was to save the large ex-fault to find with Her Majesty's Governpenses incident to the transfer of land, and effect that transfer without the ordinary investigation of title. This Commission had not met with general acceptance or favour, and the consequence was a charge upon the public of £7,000 or £8,000 a year, or perhaps more. Now, the benefit it conferred was strictly confined to either individuals or particular classes of individuals;

did not manage it in a proper way, and required the surveillance of a Commission, they should defray the cost, and should bear all the burdens to which ordinary property was subject.

ment. When, two years ago, the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney) brought the subject forward, he (Mr. Childers) being then Secretary to the Treasury, and entirely agreeing with the hon. Gentleman in principle, undertook that the matter should be looked into. Last year his hon. Friend again brought the question forward, and he (Mr. Childers) asked whe

opinion of this House, the expenses of the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission, Inclosure and Drainage Acts, and Charity Commission, ought not to be borne by the public," (Mr. Goldney,)

ther the Government had complied with the promise he had given and inquired into the expenditure incurred on account of the Copyhold and Charity Commissions, because he felt that his hon. Friend's object ought to be carried out. He was bound-instead thereof. now to make the same inquiry; for there could be no difficulty whatever in having MR. MARSH said, he would confine the Treasury re-couped for the large expen- his observations to the question of chariditure which these Commissions entailed. ties. All that was asked was that the TreaFor the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe sury should re-coup itself for the expenses Commission there was an expenditure of of managing them. They were sometimes £20,294, besides rent of a house, and cer- founded by persons who were in advance tain other exemptions from charge which of the civilization of the age in which they did not appear. The whole amount re-lived, but many of them had now become ceived in fees during 1867 was only entirely useless. It was a mistake to £4.080, leaving a difference of £16,000, allow persons to tie up property in perwhich the Treasury ought to be re-couped. The charge for the Charity Commission was £18,400, and there could hardly be a question that this expenditure ought also to be re-couped to the public. He did not know whether there were any fees in this case, but if there were they were very small. Then, as to the third case of expenditure, in connection with the registration of titles, the Land Registry Office itself did not cost very much, and it was the beginning of a new system of registry, but as another Department had been alluded to he must say that the state of things with respect to the Middlesex Registry Office was monstrous. The Middlesex Registry Office was not apparently a Department responsible to that House. In the other cases the Departments were paid by the State, and the fees, small as they were, went into the Exchequer. In this case also the Department received fees, but the balance went into the hands of sinecurists-one of whom drew three cheques a year, and the other did nothing, and for that these gentlemen received between £2,000 and £3,000 a year. There was this remarkable difference between the two classes of casesnamely, that where the balance went into the hands of gentlemen who had nothing to do there was a very large surplus; but where it went into the Exchequer there was very little surplus indeed. However, the Government had promised that this office and the Land Registry Office should be worked by a Commission; and this being so, it might be left out of the question. So amended, he trusted the Government would not object to the Motion of his hon. Friend.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the

petuity for charitable, or indeed for any purposes. There were three descriptions of charities-namely, hospitals, almshouses, and grammar schools. The first was an unmixed good. They required little looking after, and were managed by local boards; but almshouses were monkish institutions unsuited to the present age. They were really useless and tended very much to produce pauperism by encouraging unthrifty habits. They generally contained half-a-dozen old men and as many old women, who would be much happier if they could live with their friends. Even the Greenwich sailors preferred to receive a small sum of money a day and to be allowed to live with their friends rather than dwell in a palace on the banks of the Thames. With regard to grammar schools, they might in a few cases be useful, by enabling boys of a humbler class to obtain an education which raised them to a higher position; but he thought that where the qualities which qualified a boy for a more important sphere existed, they would assert themselves without this adventitious assistance. In other cases these schools had had a mischievous effect, giving boys an education of a kind which they did not want, and increasing that class who were constantly writing to Members of Parliament for situations as clerks, and who, in the colonies, were the most useless and helpless portion of the population. There were about 3,000 of these schools, and the recent Report of the Royal Commissioners had shown the maladministration which existed. He had seen an account of a recent discussion in a town council as to why there were no boys at the town grammar school, some one remarked that they had only to send for a photograph of the master to know the reason. In King

Edward's School, at Birmingham, the Com-
missioners found a boy who spelt "wrong"
"roung," who could not name a river in
England, and who could not tell the names
of any of the capital cities in Europe. At
Thame Grammar School, with an income of
£792, there were only three boys. At Bos-
worth School there were two masters and
one boy. In another case there had been no
scholar for more than thirty years, and in a
fourth case, there were six boys whom the
master, living in the school-house and do-
ing nothing, sent to a private school. As
leases fell in, and as the revenues increased,
the existing evils would be exaggerated.
In Scotland, parents were far more willing
to pay for the education of their children
than in England where people had been
spoilt by the system of endowments. He
did not, however, advocate the spoliation of
charities; nor were we now proposing, as
the right hon. Gentleman the Member for
South Lancashire (Mr. Gladstone) boldly
did some years ago, that charities should
be liable to the income tax; but he
thought it was only right that their reve-
nues should not be supplemented out of
the general taxation of the country.

of Parliament. These various bodies had been established from time to time with full knowledge of their objects and of their cost; and they were in reality Courts of Law. While concurring in many of the remarks and suggestions of his hon. Friend (Mr. Goldney), who had so ably introduced the subject, he thought more deliberate and mature discussion was required before so decided a step as that proposed were taken, unless, indeed, the Government, after their attention had been thus drawn to the matter, should take upon themselves to propose the alterations now suggested. With regard to the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission, it had never been looked upon as permanent, having been several times renewed, and would expire in 1872. It had cognizance of such a variety of matters that it would be difficult to lay down the rule that every person resorting to it should pay such fees as to render it self-supporting. There was the apportionment of tithe-a question of such importance that the money required for this portion of the Commissioners' operations could not be deemed to have been improperly applied. With regard to copyholders, it was considered to be a matter of great public importance that copyhold tenures should cease to exist in this country. By means of this Commission large quantities of copyhold lands had been enfranchised at small cost, and a great amount of taxable and rateable property had been created, and had thus become a source of wealth to the country. The Commission thus conferred a benefit upon the public, for which the public ought to pay. Then, again, by means of the Inclosure Commission, enormous quantities of waste land had been brought into cultivation, which would scarcely have been the case if the poorer class of landowners, who chiefly derived benefit from the distribution of the waste and common lands, had been compelled to pay the expenses of the Commission. The hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney) had stated the cost of the Commission to be £30,000 per annum; but he was labouring under a mistake, as the expenditure entailed by it only amounted to £20,000 per annum plus the imprest expenses. He hoped, however, that a Bill would shortly be introduced into Parliament to enable MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, he the Inclosure Commissioners to take sethought the House would hardly be in-curity for the preliminary expenses and clined, upon so short a notice, to subvert to secure the re-payment to the Comarrangements laid down by several Acts missioners of such preliminary expenses in

Ex.

MR. SCOURFIELD said, he thought that some of the arguments brought forward were entirely out of place. Why," it had been said, "is a person in Yorkshire to pay for the benefit of a person in Buckinghamshire?" It might just as well be said, "Why is a person in Wales or in Cornwall to pay towards the expenses incurred by this House in connection with the Paris Exhibition?" He could bear testimony to the usefulness of the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission. changes of land had thereby been effected at a small expense, and this had indirectly benefited the whole community; for where land passed from an owner in whose possession it had been unproductive to one in whose hands it became productive the public good was promoted. The offence of the Land Inclosure Commissioners was, he suspected, their having shown how that which had been attended with great expense might be effected with economy. Ile hoped, therefore, the operations of that Commission would not be discouraged, and with regard to charities the greater the abuses the more necessary it was that they should be subject to supervision.

The

the case of the investigation proving fruit- so as to enable small charities to come to less. The Bill should also empower the it for assistance and advice. The Court Commissioners to make certain alterations had, at the present moment, £3,000,000 of in the business of their Court; but it would the funds belonging to various charities in be most unwise and rash to pass hastily its hands, and it kept 4,500 accounts. such a Resolution upon the subject as that Many of the larger charities, however, were now before the House. The subject re-out of the purview of the Court. quired much more deliberate attention than it could receive on the hasty passing of a Resolution on going into Committee of Supply. He was unacquainted with the negotiations which had taken place upon this subject in former years; but he should be happy to endeavour to make arrange ments to secure certain alterations being made in the Copyhold and Inclosure Courts. At the same time, he must remind the House that Parliament had deliberately resolved that the expenses of these Courts should be defrayed by the Votes of that House, in accordance with the recommen dations of a Committee of Inquiry which was appointed in 1854, to inquire into this subject, and which consisted of Sir Charles Trevelyan and Sir Stafford Northcote. No objection had been raised by the Commission against an alteration being made in the scale of fees which they charged, and doubtless after the attention of the House and of the public had been drawn to the subject, it would be easy to carry into effect the necessary alterations in this respect. With regard to the Charity Commission, he concurred in the opinion that the expenses it involved ought not to be borne entirely by the country; but it would be a very difficult task to settle the matter satisfactorily. From 1844 to 1852, Bills were introduced by the Government almost every year with the view of setting up this Commission, and in every one of those Bills there was a clause making the cost fall upon the public. In 1852 the Bill passed. As originally introduced it contained a clause proposing to levy a tax of 2d. in the pound on all charities brought into the Court; but it was proved in debate that there would be great difficulty in imposing such a tax, and Earl Russell objected to the clause, on the ground that it would be very unjust to tax well-conducted charities for the purpose of controlling those not so well-conducted, and he proposed that the expenses of the Commission should be defrayed by the public. The Commission had been productive of a vast amount of public good, and it was, in fact, a branch of the Court of Chancery. It was a public court in which the procedure was cheap and simple,

Commission had no objection whatever to
its expenses being defrayed by a tax upon
property belonging to charities; but they
did object to any system of taxation which
would prevent the smaller charities from
coming into that Court. A general tax of
2d. in the pound upon property belonging
to charities would amply defray the costs
of the Commission. For his part, he should
not object to the imposition of such a tax;
but the House would recollect the failure
of the attempt of the right hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Mr. Gladstone) to subject
charities to taxation; and in the face
of the great influence brought to bear
against the imposition even of poor rates
upon charities, with what heart could they
proceed to the consideration of a direct tax.
A judicial decision having virtually re-
pealed the law exempting charities from
the payment of rates, great efforts had
been made, and deputations had been
headed by individuals high in station, for a
remission in favour of charities. There-
fore he thought it would be futile to
press the Resolution now recommended.
With regard to the Land Registry Office
the case was much more simple. That
office had been a failure; that was to say,
it had not received sufficient custom from
the public to be self-supporting.
such had been the case was no fault of
the Government; it resulted entirely from
the action of the public, who, if they had
resorted to it as it might reasonably
have been expected they would have done
- would have enabled the intentions of
its noble author Lord Westbury - to
be fully carried out. The chief secretary
of that Court, however, believed that
with some slight alteration it would be-
come self-supporting. He regretted that
the Middlesex Registry Office an office
which was at present somewhat under a
cloud, and which, by general consent, re-
quired investigation should have been
mixed up with this question, for with this
subject that office had really nothing to
do. The Lord Chancellor stated in No-
vember that the matter was under his con-
sideration, and the Secretary of State had
it under contemplation to unite the func-
tions of the Middlesex Registry with the

-

That

Land Registry Office. It appeared that | House to pass the Resolution. The hon. upon the whole question there was very Gentleman (Mr. Sclater-Booth) had said little difference of opinion between the there had been deputations headed by Government and the hon. Gentleman who powerful individuals urging further remis introduced the subject. He was sorry to sions on behalf of charities. That was have detained the House so long; but he another reason why they should pass the could not recognize the wisdom of passing Resolution. He (Mr. Gladstone) looked a Resolution such as the one proposed, the with considerable horror upon these depueffect of which would be to embarrass their tations headed by powerful individuals. proceedings. They were intended to saddle the public with burdens; and aimed at securing by personal and individual influence a result which could not fairly be arrived at on the merits of the case. If that House was mindful of its duty as steward of the public purse, the very fact of the extraordinary superhuman activity which, as he knew to his cost, was always displayed by these deputations, would be a powerful reason for showing when the subject came up that they were in earnest. The hon. Gentleman said that if they passed the Resolution it would subvert arrangements made by statute. It would have no such effect. It would not even secure the total disappearance, perhaps, of certain Votes from the Estimates of the present year, but it would make it the duty of the Government to go seriously to work for the attainment of a definite object, and instead of being left to be lost in the mazes of argument with these powerful deputations, they would be backed by the authority of the House, which would have distinctly marked out the aim to which their efforts should be directed. The plan of the Government would, no doubt, be introduced in due time, and as regarded the voting of moneys for carrying on the operations of these Commissions during the period while that plan was being brought into action, to the voting of such moneys the most fastidious Member of Parliament, or the most rigid economist, could not reasonably object. There was one portion of the speech of the hon. Gentleman which he heard with more jealousy as to its principle, because he understood him to argue with reference to the charges under the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission, and the Inclosure and Drainage Acts, that because the operation of those Acts was beneficial to the country at large, therefore the charge should be borne by the country. He demurred to that principle; because if it were good there were innumerable cases in which the charges should be borne by the country. There were here two classes. There was a comparatively narrow class or portion of

MR. GLADSTONE said, he hoped the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney)-to whom he tendered his acknowledgments for the Motion he had made-would consent to omit the words relating to the Land Registry Office; because their only tendency, in his opinion, would be to perplex the case with respect to the other part of the Motion. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government, after that omission had been made, oppose the Resolution, because he believed that the arguments employed by the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Sclater-Booth) were not such as to induce the House to vote against the Motion. There had not been the suddenness in the Motion of which the hon. Gentleman complained. The subject of the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission had been under consideration before, and two years ago a promise was given by the then Government, which for some reason or other was unredeemed, that the matter should be dealt with in the precise sense asked by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney). Similar promises had been made with regard to the Charity Commission, so that suddenness could not be alleged against a Motion which would, even if sudden, have been equally entitled to weight. He hoped the House would pass the Resolution, because by so doing they would strengthen the hands of the Government in a matter in which they had great need to be strengthened. This was an admirable opportunity for them to deal with charities. He attempted to deal with charities three or four years ago, but the party now in Office, was then in Opposition, and the almost unanimous resistance of that party was offered to his proposal. That party being now in Office, circum stances were favourable; and he trusted that hon. Members would feel that this was an opportunity to procure what, if the Liberal party had been in Office it would have been much more difficult to obtain. Knowing well what the Treasury really required in cases of this kind, he entreated the