years past with regard to turnpikes had | Bill, of which he had charge, came before been exactly reversed. In the first para- the House, he should be glad to discuss graph of the Report, credit was taken for the whole subject, and to expose the weaka great improvement in the work in con- ness and fallacy of the statements which nection with this subject in the Home had been made. The present Government Office. He objected that a reflection had reversed the process which had been should be thrown upon the administration acted upon for years with regard to turnof the Home Office in former years; and pike trusts, deliberately setting aside the contended that no credit whatever was due Report of the Select Committee. He perto the present administration, notwith- ceived in the Report statements which he standing the claim which had been put ventured to think he had answered sucforward. The official Report, contrary to cessfully two or three years ago. He all precedent, was taken up with two or hoped they had not been introduced for three pages of the old stock trumpery the purpose of creating a precedent; but arguments, which had been answered he thought that they ought not to have again and again in favour of the con- been introduced in their present shape, tinuance of turnpikes; and the statement, even with the object of elucidation. He moreover, was entirely ex parte. It cer- believed the present state of the law to be tainly was disheartening to find that, after unequal, uncertain, and most unsatisfacso many years' effort to get rid of the evils tory; and, therefore, if the Government of the turnpike system, renewed impedi- undertook to bring in a Bill to effect the ments should be thrown by the action of desired reform, he should be very glad to the Government, or by the influence of give them his assistance. their supporters, in the way of useful legislation.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the

end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copy of all the Communications received in reply Turnpike Trustees referred to in p. 9 of the to the Circular sent in February 1866 to certain Seventeenth Report on Turnpike Trusts, of which Extracts are therein given, together with the names of the Correspondents,”—(Mr. Clive,)

MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN, in seconding the Motion, said, that all that the Home Office could do was to press the clerks to produce the returns as soon as possible. He concurred in the com. plaint made by his hon. Friend (Mr. Clive), and must further complain that the action of the Home Office had led to the introduction, for the first time, of arguments into the annual statement with re-instead thereof. ference to trusts. He was aware that the

Act of Parliament stated that observations might be made in the Report; but the Legislature never intended that it should contain a series of arguments which would enable persons who took a peculiar view to quote an official document in support of it, and to assert that it was the judgment of the Home Office. During the few months that he had filled the Office of Under Secretary for the Home Department, he had never ventured to embody in an official statement of this nature his own views on the subject of turnpike tolls. This was a question of the very greatest importance, and he should like, if the opportunity were afforded, to have a further discussion upon it. When he saw the contents of this annual statement he was inclined to answer it, but refrained from doing so because he thought that course would be inconvenient to the House. He could not enter into the question as it stood now without raising the whole turnpike question; but, when the Turnpike

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

LORD HENLEY said, that the subject was one of great importance. The Report confirmed an idea which he had formed, after what he had heard in Committees on the turnpike system—namely, that the Home Office was not the tribunal by which matters relating to turnpike trusts could be decided in a satisfactory manner. There were as many as 1,033 of those trusts, and it could not be supposed that either the Secretary of State for the Home Department or his Under Secretary had time to attend to them. Besides, they required local knowledge which one could not expect to find in the Home Office. There were 194 trusts out of debt, but with these the Home Office had not dealt very satisfactorily. As for the reasons assigned in the Report for not throwing the roads on the parishes when the trusts had expired, they might be

hands. He trusted the right hon. Gentle- | other half were paid by the occupiers. One man the Home Secretary would be good source of difficulty in dealing with the debt enough to listen to the earnest appeals was the apathy of creditors about their that were made to him to pay attention to capital when it was once lodged in the this matter, which, as time advanced, hands of a trust. That might be natural affected the interests of the country more when 5 per cent interest was paid, but the and more. extraordinary thing was that it should be so in the case of trusts paying 1 per cent. He had known cases where persons who were only receiving 13 per cent, and not always that, upon the worst security in the world, had neglected to accept offers to pay them off at £50, and even at £60. In one case he had got on behalf of a charity a composition of £47 for such a debt, which was at the rate of more than thirty years' purchase, where the Act would expire in five years. This apathy accounted for the large debt still remaining on the trusts; but when Government took action, and proposed to do away with the trusts, these same people would object that their property was being confiscated, though they had neglected their chance of obtaining composition for their money invested in the roads. He thought that the only settlement of the question which could prove satisfactory would be to throw the cost of the roads on large districts rather than upon parishes. It was understood that a measure was to be brought forward by the Home Secretary, who would perhaps give some explanation of it, but without knowing what the Government would do the House could hardly come to a practical conclusion.

LORD GEORGE CAVENDISH, while admitting that nothing in a small way was more vexatious than to be stopped on the road to pay a toll, said, that the toll system at least secured good roads, which were paid for by those who used them. If the repair of all roads was thrown on the parishes, a much more vexatious state of things would exist-the roads would be allowed to go out of repair. You might force the repair of the road upon the unwilling ratepayers, but they would prove like the horse at the water that could not be made to drink. Farmers would repair the roads to be traversed by their own carts, but would leave them in an unsatisfactory condition for other conveyances. Had we possessed all our present experience we might have devised a better system as regards our legislation on turnpike trusts. Certain districts might have been grouped together, and, as the terms fell out, the trusts might have been continued from year to year until all the roads in that district could have been brought under the Home Office together. If that had been done, greater economy could have been practised, many toll-bars might have been removed, and, finally, one term could have been fixed for all the roads in the district. As it was, great injustice often arose; because an Act was allowed to expire a road was thrown upon the highway rates, perhaps a parallel road was repaired by tolls, and the result was the traffic was diverted to the road which had been freed from toll-bars. This might have been avoided under a more uniform system, which would have allowed those who took an interest in the matter to put the roads of a large district under one management. The gradual abolition of tolls under such a system would have led farmers to look upon highway districts with greater satisfaction. In speaking of the debt, he wished to refer to the system which prevailed in Scotland, and which worked admirably. The system of rating was different, for the landlords assumed the payment of the debt; but, although the English system was different, the solution of the difficulty would be facilitated if the landowners would take one-half the debt on themselves, and the VOL. CXCI. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. SCOURFIELD agreed that the farmer who used the roads would not have to pay more if the roads were maintained out of the rates; but the grievance would be that those who did not use them would have to pay the same as those who did.

MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, he was very sorry so much fault had been found with a Report published under his auspices; but many of the objections taken to it were not, in his opinion, valid. It was said that credit was taken for something now carried out by the present Government. It was not, however, this, but the last Government that had the credit-if credit were to be taken at all— for something that had been done by Mr. William Harrison. From the speeches made it might be supposed that the task of settling the turnpike affairs of the country was an easy one; but he was bound to say that, having had his attention drawn, during the last two months, to the subject, he had come to the con

3 T

clusion that the difficulties in the way way, the distance allowed was fifteen feet. appeared greater the nearer they were A case had occurred in which the moment approached. In consequence of the strong a road was thrown upon the parish manure feeling generally existing against any in- had been deposited within fifteen feet of crease in the rating, the present time was it. It would be necessary, therefore, if the very worst for dealing with the ques- they proceeded to deal with the question, tion; and therefore, if an attempt were to consider all the laws relating to the two made now to throw the roads upon the classes of roads. Great fault had been rates, he believed the outcry would be found with a part of this Report which great indeed, and in many instances it contained certain reasons; but he thought would be just. It was true, according to it was well that the House should have the Report, that the tolls levied amounted before them a narrative of what occurred to £945,458, and that the cost of repairs in 1866. In giving this narrative his was only 58 per cent of the receipts. But object was not to offer an argument on the 30 per cent was paid for interest upon debt, part of the Home Office, but to show the making 80 or 90 per cent, and law charges nature of the trusts in different parishes. and salaries bring up the amount to about His hon. Friend had included in the Turnthe 100. Beyond this there were the pike Trusts Continuance Bill a great numexpenses and profits of the toll collectors, ber of trusts that were meant to expire. and thus a greater cost was imposed on the At one time he had thought of inserting country than was estimated by the sum of in the Continuance Bill all the trusts which £945,000. He could not say how much were out of debt, and referring the Bill to this would be. But he thought that before a Select Committee. He should have done any steps were taken to deal with the that this Session, but hon. Members whom subject of turnpike trusts there should be he would have liked to place upon the a valuation taken of debts at the present Committee expressed a disinclination to time with a view to ascertain what they undertake so great a task. He proposed, were really worth; because, at the rates however, to introduce a Continuance Bill mentioned by the noble Lord (Lord George at an earlier period than usual-as soon as Cavendish) they would not prove so for he could get it ready; and he should have midable in fact as they looked on paper. no objection, in cases which seemed to the It would be desirable to know what they House to require investigation, to refer were really worth in the market; and he them, or any part of them, to a Select believed that the creditors of the roads Committee. With respect to bringing in would be glad to take such a valuation if a Bill himself, he had had a Bill prepared, it were fairly made. The next question but having only just received it from the that arose was, how the roads, when freed draftsman, he had not yet had time to exfrom debt, were to be dealt with-whether amine it; and he should not bring it in by county Boards, or by highway dis- unless it was one which met with his tricts. He confessed his present impres- entire approval, and unless it was in a sion was that highway districts would give shape which satisfied him that it had a insufficient areas for the purpose. Again, chance of passing. His desire was that when you were dealing with these turn- the thing should be thoroughly underpike roads, which were not now all main stood; but the circumstances of the Sesroads, power must be given to any autho- sion forbade a general inquiry. It was rity set up to declare which should be not desirable to discuss the question furmain roads, and in the case of turnpike ther on a Motion of this description. He roads which were now only common high- agreed that turnpikes and turnpike tolls ways, to let them fall into comparative were disagreeable things; and on this disrepair. He did not say that they should point he spoke feelingly, because in no be allowed to fall into absolute disrepair; part was the toll system more vexatious but all these roads need not absolutely be than in that in which he resided. Up to kept up on the same footing. It would be last year there were three turnpikes be necessary, also, to enter into many other tween his house and the railway station, points. A difference existed in the penal and there were now two. As far as he laws affecting turnpike roads and main was concerned, therefore, he should be roads. To take a small instance. By the glad to get rid of turnpikes. At the same Turnpike Acts a person was not allowed to time, it was only fair to consider who place manure within thirty feet of the was to bear the burden when tolls were middle of the road; in the case of a high- abolished. His own notion was that you

could not arrive at a satisfactory conclusion on this point without the creation of county Boards, giving them power, as he understood was the case in Scotland, to take tolls at such points as they thought proper.

strictly correct. In 1860 Lord Palmerston startled the House by proposing a Vote of £9,000,000 for fortifications for the defence of our naval arsenals. Upon that occasion a debate of a most interesting character took place, in which the hon. Members for Nottingham (Mr. Osborne) for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) and others who had ever been foremost as the care. ful custodians of the public purse, opposed the Vote; but the influence of the Government was too much for them, and after a protracted debate, extending over two or three nights, and after many Amendments and divisions, the Resolution was carried-Lord Palmerston promising that the Government in power should come to Parliament every year for a Vote for the sum required of that year, and present an Ap

MR. NEATE said, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not overlook the case of those roads where the tolls had been abolished; for redress was called for with respect to them as much as it was called for with respect to those where tolls still existed. A flagrant injustice had been done under the substituted system of rating. There were instances in which those roads were made without any refer ence to the parish in which they were made, and which was rated for their maintenance. He knew an instance in which a road had been made just outside a gen-propriation Act for that purpose. On the tleman's park, and not with any unjust idea, for, in the first instance, the road had been kept up by tolls; but the abolition of those tolls had thrown the burden upon an adjoining parish.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9th of August, 1860, when the second reading of the first Appropriation Bill was proposed, Mr. Edwin James, who was then a Member of the House, moved a very remarkable Amendment, to the effect that, before proceeding further with the Bill, it was desirable that the House should be in the possession of more certain information as to the entire cost of the constructions and the efficient maintenance of the proposed sea and land fortifications, distinguishing the expense of each. That Amendment was seconded by Sir Charles Napier, but it shared the fate of its predecessors. The Minister of the day had his way upon the subject, and the Government went on with the con

MR. HARDCASTLE, who had given Notice of a Motion that the position of Turnpike Trusts now expired but annually renewed should be submitted to the consideration of a Select Committee, said he should not press it, but hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would appoint a Select Committee to consider the expired Turnpike Trusts Acts which might be brought under his notice; and he trusted that it would not be long before the Construction of the forts on their own plans, tinuance Act was introduced.

ARMY-FORTIFICATIONS-DOCKYARDS
AND NAVAL ARSENALS.

RESOLUTION.

MR. O'BEIRNE said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the plans upon which the Fortifications for the defence of the Dockyards and Naval Arsenals of the United Kingdom, and for the defence of our Colonies, were being constructed. He wished to state at the outset that he brought forward this question in no party spirit, but purely in a national point of view. For much of the information which he had obtained on the subject he was indebted to articles which had appeared in the organ of the right hon. Gentleman opposite the Standard newspaper and he had satisfied himself that the information thus obtained was in every instance

as if the question was not open to debate. It would almost seem reasonable that, before an expenditure of between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000 was entered upon, some degree of caution and inquiry with reference to these fortifications should have marked the movements of those in authority; but the House would be surprised when he stated that little or no inquiry took place, as would be seen, when he explained to them the experiments that took place, and the result. They were in no better position now with reference to the construction of these forts than they were in 1860. At that time, as well as at this moment, the following questions among others were entirely open-whether the land forts should be constructed of granite only, or granite in connection with iron shields-whether they were to be faced with iron upon granite, or whether granite was first to be built up, and iron in the