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I give notice that I will take the liberty of asking the Government, either to-day or to-morrow, as may best suit them, Whether it would be compatible with their view of the state of Public Business to afford any assistance for the discussion of this Motion, and, possibly, the right hon. Gentleman the First Minister of the Crown will now be pleased to say what view he takes of that matter? In case it should not be in the power of the right hon. Gentleman to afford such assistance, I should then feel it my duty to endeavour to bring it on the first day on which I could regularly propose it, and I believe that would be Friday next, and I should further give notice of it as an Amendment on going into Committee of Supply.
MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I do not know that it is quite regular that I should give the required information to the House; but I apprehend that it is for their convenience that I should do so, and, with their indulgence, I will do so at once. I require no time at all to consider the course which we ought to take; and I need not tell the House that where Notices of this character are given by one's opponents, one's natural feeling is to meet them as soon as we are permitted by the state of the Public Business and other considerations respecting the convenience of the House. I have no hesitation in saying that the state of Public Business, as is well known to the House, is not very satisfactory at present; but I will take the House into counsel. I feel that with their assistance we might be able to do all that is necessary and yet meet the wishes and convenience of the right hon. Gentleman. It is of primary importance that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War should take a Vote for men to-night. If the House will grant them he will be able to bring in the Mutiny Bill, and then there would be fair time, without interfering with the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman, to carry it through; and Gentlemen who wished to enter into any discussion upon the Mutiny Bill would have a fair opportunity when it goes into Committee. I hope, therefore, that the House will give my right hon. Friend the Vote to-night; and in that case I think I shall be able to make a fair and reasonable arrangement with the right hon. Gentleman. The day VOL. CXCI. [THIRD SERIES.]
that I should propose would be this day week. But on this day week the Irish Reform Bill is placed for a second reading. Now, it has been to me an object of great importance that the second reading should take place, and that the question should. be advanced with a view of ensuringwith other arrangements in respect of other Bills-the dissolution of Parliament at the beginning of the next year. Any great delay with the Irish Reform Bill would be an obstacle to that result. The Government, however, have considered the subject, and though, if the Irish Reform Bill be not read a second time on Monday, it cannot be proceeded with before the holidays, still we should be able to obtain that result in this manner. I assume that the House has consented to the principle of Com missioners examining the boundaries of boroughs in Ireland. I apprehend that principle was virtually acceded to by the passing of the Bill of last year; and in that case I would follow the example of 1831 and 1832, and at once appoint a Royal Commission to examine the boundaries of the Irish boroughs. They would proceed with their labours, and by that means we should obtain such progress that the dissolution would not be interfered with. Although I propose a Royal Commission for the boundaries of the Irish boroughs, I should still not issue it without previously bringing before the House the names of the three Commissioners I propose, and without their sanction I certainly should not advise Her Majesty to insert their names. At the same time, the names will be such as I have no doubt would recommend themselves to the unanimous approval of the House. Well then, Sir, if we can only get this Vote tonight, and come to this arrangement about the Boundary Commissioners, we shall be able to give Monday to the right hon. Gentleman, without so far interfering with the progress of business as to pre. vent those arrangements for the dissolution which we have had in contemplation. Well then, Sir, there is only one other consideration that we must not lose sight of, and that is-that fair notice shall be given to the House on a subject which I have no hesitation in saying is one of paramount importance; a longer notice, under ordinary circumstances, should be given in order that the House should have an opportunity of considering it, and the country should be made acquainted with it. But looking at the convenience C
MR. CORRY: Sir, in answering the Question of the hon. and learned Gentleman, perhaps the House will allow me, as it has reference to a case which has excited a very painful interest, to read some extracts from documents which the Admiralty have received on the subject. The Senior Lieutenant of Her Majesty's ship Favourite says in his Official Report
of the House, which I think ought always | he was at the time labouring under a to be considered, I shall give Monday to disease of the heart? the right hon. Gentleman, and, if the debate terminates on the following Friday, I shall propose then that we adjourn for the holidays; because after a struggle of that kind there would, I think, be no use entering upon the next week for business. But, of course, I reserve to myself the right of taking such a course as the state of business may render necessary; and with this explanation, which I hope will prove satisfactory, we shall be prepared to meet the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman on Monday.
MR. GLADSTONE: As far as I am concerned, I thank the right hon. Gentleman. The arrangement that he proposes is perfectly satisfactory. I presume that if he gets the Vote for the men to-night he will go forward with the Mutiny Bill at once, so as to dispose of the Committee on the Bill during the present week.
MR. DISRAELI: That is my present intention.
MR. GLADSTONE: With regard to what has been said on the question of the Irish Borough Boundaries, we cannot expect that every gentleman will surrender every opinion he may entertain on that subject; but I confess it appears to me that the right hon. Gentleman is acting quite within the discretion in his province and that of the Government if he thinks fit to appoint a Commission upon the authority of the Executive, and presents it as part of his plan. I do not conceive that any practical objection can arise to the course that he proposes.
REVISION OF RAILWAYS.-QUESTION. MR. BAZLEY said, he would beg to ask the right hon. Baronet the Member for Gateshead, If he will delay any further proceeding with the Bill for the revision of Railways till after Easter?
SIR WILLIAM HUTT was understood
to say, that he was anxious to proceed with the Bill as rapidly as possible, but he was in the hands of the House.
NAVY-FLOGGING ON BOARD THE
MR. SERJEANT GASELEE said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true that a seaman on board the Favourite died under the operation of flogging; and, whether it was known to the surgeon of the ship that
19th of October, regarding the circumstances
me to send the master-at-arms on shore to search
"I have the honour to inform you that the man mentioned (George Addison) was brought on board at 6.30 p.m. on the 18th of October, 1867, in a violent state of excitement from drink. As this man was observed by the sergeant of Marines to be unusually quiet the medical officer on board was called to see him at 8.30 p.m., when he found Sick Journal I find that this man has been nine that life was extinct. From a reference to the times on the sick list for periods varying from two days to sixty-two days, and that he had suffered from scrofula, and from lung and heart disease.
. I am of opinion that this man's death the use of the alcoholic poison; and probably, also, resulted from disease of the heart, accelerated by by the use of the gag employed to quiet him."
On the circumstances being reported to Vice Admiral Sir G. R. Mundy a Court of Inquiry was ordered to be held by Captain Hamilton, of Her Majesty's ship Sphinx, and Captain Heysham, of Her Majesty's ship Fawn, who made the following Report:
"First, That there appears to have been nothing unusual, according to the custom of the service, in giving the order to gag the late George
Addison; second, that the medical evidence | but up to the hour at which he had come points directly at the impropriety of the form of down to the House they had not arrived. the gag which was used, in which we fully concur, The question was one entirely for the debelieving also that the gag was too tightly drawn. Third, That there is no reason to attribute inten- cision of the Commander-in-Chief, but tional cruelty or want of consideration to George doubtless a very strict inquiry would be Addison on the part of William Dawtry, the mas-made into the whole of the circumstances ter-at-arms, who applied the gag. Fourth, That no precautionary measures appear to have been neglected as regards the visitation of the prisoner by the police. Fifth, That there is no evidence to show that anyone on board suspected that the prisoner was dead until the sergeant sent for the Assistant Surgeon. Sixth, That the medical officers appointed to assist us in this investigation IRELAND-DUTY ON SPIRIT LICENSES. concur in these opinions."
Dr. Kaye, the coroner for the island, who attended the inquiry on board the Favourite, by express invitation, expressed himself satisfied that the evidence adduced, and especially that given by the two medical officers, proved that the man having died while under restraint was a perfectly accidental, although untoward, event. Under these circumstances, Vice Admiral Sir G. R. Mundy, in reporting the case to the Secretary of the Admiralty, said
"I beg to state that Captain Shortt has informed me that the ship's company have been satisfied with the inquiry which has been instituted, and trust their Lordships will consider that the whole case has been dealt with by me in a manner suitable to its requirements."
But it appeared to us that this very painful case required further investigation, and, accordingly, a Court martial was directed to be held on the First Lieutenant and upon the master-at-arms for the manslaughter of Addison. The result of that Court martial, which was held in January, was that both prisoners were fully acquitted. I was entirely ignorant of the fact that "gagging" was practised in the navy, and on my attention being drawn to the subject, an Admiralty Order was issued prohibiting the practice for the future, and ordering that men when noisy and violent should be confined in cells.
connected with the case. He could not, however, conceal his apprehension that in allowing the troops to land when they did, a very serious error had been committed.
GENERAL DUNNE said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether a large increase has not been made to the Duty on Spirit Licenses in Ireland; and, if so, by what authority, and under what Act of Parliament?
MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, in reply, that the Excise License Act required that the Duty should be charged according to the rent or annual value of the house. Great complaints having been made by applicants for new licenses, that they were charged on a higher basis than the holders of old licenses, inquiry was made, and it was found that publicans and spirit grocers of old standing had not in many cases been charged additional Duty from time to time in proportion to the increased value of property. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue accordingly gave orders that from October last all holders of licenses should be assessed on what was
known as Griffiths' valuation, with an addition of one-fourth. Complaints of overassessment were in consequence made, amounting to 587, but in 342 cases the new assessment had been confirmed; in thirty-six cases it had been reduced; and in 209 it had been still further increased
the rents actually paid having been found to exceed the new valuation.
would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether the Resolution passed by the Justices assembled at the last Michaelmas Quarter Sessions of the county
MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he
according to promise, by the Secretary of according to promise, by the Secretary of State for War, as follows:
of Berks has been taken into consideration,
that it is unjust that Military prisoners be sent
"Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Court
to Reading Gaol as long as there is room for them in the Military prisons of the country;"
and, whether, in any case, if the War to ask the right hon. Gentleman the MemOffice resorts to such a practice, they ber for South Lancashire, If he would fix ought not at least to pay to the county a time after which he would not bring the same proportion of expense for the on the third reading of the Compulsory use and establishment of the gaol as is Church Rates Abolition Bill? Since its paid by the borough making use of the second reading it had undergone considercounty gaol in the same way? able alteration.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, in reply, said, the rule of the Army was that soldiers sentenced to imprisonment only were confined in the Military prisons, but when the sentence was imprisonment and dismissal from the army at the end of the term, offenders in those cases were always sent to the county gaols. With respect to the amount paid for their maintenance, it was settled by the Act of 1863. It was not in his power to authorize any departure from those rules.
GARTER KING AT ARMS.-QUESTION. MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If he has any objection to explain to the House-seeing that the Government last Session obtained a Vote (Class 5, Vote 20) for expenses of Garter King at Arms and Viscount Sydney, in investing the King of the Belgians with the Order of the Garter, £1,020 11s. 6d. Expenses investing Kings of Portugal and Denmark and Grand Duke of Hesse with the Order of the Garter, £2,537 3s. 10d.: total, £3,557 158. 4d.why he asked, on Monday, the 17th instant, for, and obtained, a Vote under the head of Civil Service Excesses (Item No. 12, Special Missions, £10,224 178. 5d.), described as
"Chiefly due to the expenses of Mr. Rassam's Mission to Abyssinia, and of investing the Kings of Belgium, Portugal, and Denmark, and the Grand Duke of Hesse, with the Order of the Garter?"
MR. SCLATER-BOOTH said, in reply, that the hon. Gentleman was mistaken in supposing that a Vote for these items was taken in the Estimates last year. An account comprising those and other items of the previous year's expenditure was appended to the Estimate of last year for the purpose of showing the data on which that Estimate was based. The Vote taken on Monday, the 17th, was for excesses of the year ending March 31, 1867-the expenditure under Vote 20, Class 5, having exceeded the Estimate in that year.
COMPULSORY CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.-QUESTION.
MR. GLADSTONE said, he was anxious that the Bill should proceed to the House of Lords at a period when that assembly was not much occupied with other business. The discussion of the Estimates would take some time, and he could not hope to be able to bring it on before midnight. He would promise in any case not to proceed with it after half-past twelve o'clock. If any desire was exhibited for general discussion of the principle of the Bill he could not, of course, proceed with it at that hour; but he trusted that the House would permit him to go on with it that evening.
SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL. QUESTION.
MR. ROEBUCK said, he wished to know, Whether his hon. Friend the Member for Chichester would, after what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire, propose the appointment of the Select Committee on this Bill, notice of which stood on the Paper for that evening?
MR. J. A. SMITH said, he was anxious to consult the hon. and learned Gentleman's convenience and the convenience of other hon. Members as far as he possibly could; but his hon. and learned Friend knew as well as he did the difficulty which attended the proposal of such a Motion at an early period of the evening. He would, however, promise not to bring it on after one o'clock.
SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
"That the number of Land Forces, not exceed
ing 138,691 Men (including 9,880, all Ranks, to be employed with the Depôts in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland of Regiments
Serving in Her Majesty's Indian Possessions), be
maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st day of April 1868 to the 31st day of March 1869, inclusive."
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was MR. NEWDEGATE said, he desired sure he should not ask in vain for the
kind consideration and forbearance of the practice, of the advisability of which he Committee whilst he proceeded to fulfil had much doubt, to include in the Army the somewhat complicated duty of offering Estimates the cost of certain stores for the some explanation to the Committee on the use of the navy, while the cost of certain subject of the Army Estimates. In the transports for the army was charged in first place he wished to remove an impres- the Navy Estimates. This practice, which sion, which he believed was very general had been much discussed during the both in the House and out of doors, that greater part of the present century, dethe cost of the army of England for the prived the Admiralty of any control over ensuing year would amount to£15,455,450. the charge for the naval stores, and the There was not a newspaper in London Minister for War of any control over the that had not, in the last three weeks, con- cost of transport. His right hon. Friend tained remarks upon the Army Estimates the Member for Huntingdon (General for the ensuing year, in which remarks Peel) in his Statement last year said, if he it was assumed that the cost would amount recollected right, that the balance between to the sum which he had mentioned. the cost of these transports and stores Only a few nights ago the hon. Member amounted to £270,000. This year the for Truro (Captain Vivian) asked him a difference was less. The cost of naval question as to bringing forward these Esti- stores provided for in the Army Estimates mates, and said that the army expenditure was £494,138, the cost of army transport would involve a sum of £15,500,000. included in the Navy Estimates £424,791, He (Sir John Pakington) could not won- so that the difference was this year only der at the extent to which this belief had £69,347. Still, the difference was very been prevalent; and he attached no blame nearly £70,000, and that, he was bound to the public Press of London, or to any to say, was a very large amount, and the hon. Member who had been led into that system of which it was the result was cerbelief. The amount put in the first tainly open to very serious objection. He column, showing the aggregate amount of had been struck with the anomaly, while the year's Vote, was £15,500,000; and preparing the Navy Estimates of last year, this was quite enough to have led to the and also while preparing the Army Estigeneral impression. He thought that mates this year. He had received a cermembers of the Press and Members of the tain account of the transport of the army; House could not be blamed for having ab- but had no means of checking it and no stained from plunging into somewhat com- means of controlling it. The matter had plicated accounts to see whether there was been long discussed; but it appeared to him any set-off to the amount so charged. that the better course would be to include Further search into the Papers before the the stores for the navy in the Navy EstiHouse would, however, show that there mates, and the transport charges in the was a deduction to be made to the extent Army Estimates. But the Army Estiof £1,568,000. As an illustration of the mates had also to bear nearly £120,000 nature of these details he might mention for the cost of the Ordnance Survey by four the fact that the Capitation Grant for the companies of Royal Engineers; and when forces which were supplied to India alone all items not properly chargeable against accounted for upwards of £850,000 of that the army were deducted from the gross sum. He would venture to suggest that total, the result was a net demand on the it was hardly fair that the public should country of £13,699,455, an enormous be led to suppose that the finances of this figure, but still greatly below the supposed country were burdened to such a large expenditure of £15,500,000; it might be extent, when in fact the sum should be re- regarded as £1,750,000 less than the sum duced by a very large amount. The re- which the House and the country had payments into the Exchequer would re- supposed to be the real cost of the army. duce the charge of the army to consider- Still, the expenditure was certainly enorably below £14,000,000. Without com- mous, and imposed upon those who were plaining at all of the general way in which responsible for the administration of the these Estimates were prepared, he must army a necessity of conducting it with the say that he thought it a subject of regret utmost possible economy, consistent with that, in summing up the total of the first an efficient service. He hoped, before column, the £1,568,000 should not have concluding, to convince the House that it been deducted from it. But this was not had been his sincere desire to reduce the all. For many years it had been the expenditure of the army within the nar