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vide adequate food, clothing, medical aid, I might not be introduced, and that was or lodging for children under fourteen, inspection by medical officers. The prewhereby the health of such children was sent Inspectors of the Poor Law Board endangered, Clause 35 gave power to the were not able to make frequent visits to guardians to institute a prosecution, and any particular union; and they did not made the offence one punishable on sum- possess the knowledge and experience nemary conviction before two justices by cessary to enable them to advise guardians imprisonment for any period not exceeding as to the management of their infirmaries, six months, with or without hard labour. the accommodation required by patients, These were, he believed, all the explana- the arrangements as to nursing, and a tions in reference to the provisions of the variety of details upon which it was most measure with which he need then trouble desirable that guardians should be advised their Lordships. He was quite willing to by a competent person. Those who acted refer the Bill to a Select Committee; but as chairmen of local Boards would feel it would be on condition that the Com- their hands strengthened by the appointmittee should confine itself to the clauses ment of such an officer. He was glad to of this Bill, and not discuss the general observe that the noble Earl had taken a question of Poor Law administration. power of establishing infirmaries in certain places. He did not think those infirmaries were needed in rural unions; but in large and populous places such as Birmingham, he thought they might be established with great advantage, not only to the sick poor but to the ratepayers themselves, in the greater economy which would ultimately result from the good management of the sick poor. The clauses providing instruction for the children of poor persons in workhouses in the religion to which their parents belonged were entirely in accordance with the general principles of our legislation. The provisions for securing contributions from men who had deserted their wives and families were excellent. He would not now refer to certain Amendments of which he had given Notice, and which, personally or through some noble Lord, he proposed to move in the Select Committee.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, whilst approving the proposal to extend the powers of the Poor Law Board, concurred in the opinion that the increased powers should be scrutinized closely. This, however, was essentially a Bill of details, and it was exceedingly difficult to understand its clauses without reference to previous Acts and Committees. Therefore, it would be desirable to refer this Bill to a Select Committee, which would be better able to discuss the effect of the clauses than would a Committee of that House. He concurred with the noble Earl that the Select Committee ought not to go into the general question, but ought to confine itself to the clauses of this Bill. One of the clauses which raised a doubt in his mind was that relating to the appointment of a visitor. The character of it seemed to be peculiar; for it proposed to enable the Poor Law Board to appoint a person to superintend, control, and inspect the guardians appointed by the union at the pense of the union itself. The general principle on which legislation had hitherto proceeded was that local bodies elected by the ratepayers should control their own affairs and pay for the expense of such control, and that the Government should provide an adequate system of inspection, and pay for it out of the Imperial funds. Without very strong reasons that general principle ought not to be infringed. Boards of Guardians were supposed to enjoy the confidence of the ratepayers; and it would be rather hard to pay a person appointed by the Government to inspect them out of the funds they administer. While expressing a doubt with regard to this clause, he thought it might be worth while to consider whether one kind of inspection

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Comex-mittee.

EARL GREY pointed out that extreme inconvenience frequently arose in unions from the fact that guardians representing small outlying parishes, and who never attended the ordinary Board meetings, went down sometimes in a body on special occasions, and out voted those who generally conducted the business of the union, often preventing important improvements from being made. He suggested that there should be Poor Law divisions in the nature of electoral districts; and that each division of a union should be represented by guardians who, in their number, bore a just proportion to the wealth and population of the district they represented, and who should be as few as possible.

THE EARL OF AIRLIE pointed out that

there was no power taken in the Bill for the erection of infirmaries.

LORD REDESDALE said, he could not approve any provision tending to reduce the number of guardians attending a Board. It was never found inconvenient to have a large Board. On the contrary, it was extremely desirable that a Board should be large and that many persons in a country district should be made acquainted with the working of the Poor Law Board-an object which could be attained only by having large Boards of Guardians.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY concurred in the proposal to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.


THE EARL OF CORK said, that the Bill would to some extent "disestablish "" tain oyster fisheries of Ireland, as they were beyond the three-mile limit provided for by the Bill, and were therefore left unprotected by the present measure.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, the noble Earl referred to the Arklow fisheries on the coast of Wexford, which had been under the control of the Irish Fishery Board. But the noble Earl had forgotten to state that oyster fisheries outside the three-mile limit were not within the jurisdiction of the Irish Fishery Board at all.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he objected to the Bill passing in its pre

After a few words from The Earl of sent shape, as its effect would be to offer DEVON in reply,

Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn; and Bill referred to a Select Committee.

inducements to the Channel fishermen to go to Ireland during the close time in the English Channel.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, that under the Convention of 1839, a close time

And, on April 2, the Lords following were had been agreed to and acted upon between

named of the Committee :

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Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it had been rendered necessary by the new Convention on the subject of the sea fisheries with the French Government. During the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons, some points of law had arisen as to the effect which the Bill would have on certain fisheries connected with Ireland, and he had thought it right that a case in reference to these points should be drawn up and submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown. In the meantime he proposed to take the second reading of the Bill, on the understanding that the Committee would not be proceeded with until after Easter, when he would be in a position to state the effect of that legal Opinion.

this country and France as regarded the English Channel; but by the operation of this Bill that close time would be reduced by six weeks, so that the inducements to which the noble Lord referred would be proportionably diminished by the measure.

Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly.

House adjourned at a quarter past
Seven o'clock, till To-morrow,

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PUBLIC BILLS-Resolutions reported-Election
Instruction, Mr. William Lowther added.
Petitions and Corrupt Practices at Elections
[Salaries, &c.]; Land Writs Registration (Scot-
land) [Salaries, &c.]; Industrial Schools (Ire-
Ordered-Marriages (Frampton Mansel) *; Pri-
land) [Expenses].
sons (Compensation to Officers).*
First Reading-Marriages (Frampton Mansel)
[79]; Prisons (Compensation to Officers)


Second Reading-Local Government Supple-
mental [77]; Reformatory Schools (Ireland)
Committee-Perth and Brechin Provisional Or-
ders Confirmation [74]; Marine Mutiny.
Report-Perth and Brechin Provisional Orders
Confirmation [74]; Marine Mutiny.
Considered as amended-Mutiny.
Third Reading-Inclosure [73].

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2." Withdrawn-Local Officers Superannuation (Ire

-(The Duke of Richmond.)

land) * [17].



COLONEL FRENCH said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he intends, in the present Session of Parliament, to introduce any measure to put a stop to the re-erection of the stake and bag nets and other obstructions to the navigation of the River Shannon, removed by order of the Special Commission on Fisheries?

THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, that, in consequence of a decision in the Court of Queen's Bench, a number of stakes and bag nets had been erected in the Shannon and other rivers in Ireland; and it was the intention of the Fishery Commissioners to make inquiries into the matter, and until their Report was made it would not be desirable to legislate upon the subject.

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MR. COWPER said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether arrangements are in progress at Burlington House to enable the Royal Academy to vacate, in the early part of next year, the galleries occupied by them in Trafalgar Square?

LORD JOHN MANNERS replied, that by the terms of the lease to the Royal Academy the Government reserved to themselves the use of Burlington House until Christmas, 1869. Considerable difficulties had arisen with regard to the alleged interference with the lights of the Albany, which had delayed the prosecution of the

works, and he was not able to say whether the works would have so far progressed as to enable the Exhibition of the Royal Academy to be held there next year.



MR. BLAKE said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether

he has seen an account of the Government authorities at Cork having compelled two were present at respectable girls who Mackay's trial (one the sister-in-law to the prisoner) to undress in an exposed room, in disregard of their entreaties that the blind of the window should be drawn down he will direct inquiries to be made as to while they were undressing; and to ask if whether that account is true?

that his attention had not been called to THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, the circumstances of this case until he saw the Notice of the hon. Member on the Paper. He had made inquiries upon the subject, and he had been furnished with a Report from the Constabulary Officer, of which the following was an abstract :—

"On the day of Mackay's trial for murder

much excitement prevailed, and a report was generally circulated that, in the event of conviction, an attempt would be made to rescue, and therefore orders were given that all suspicious persons should be excluded from the Court. The actions of three females while in Court attracted the attention of the police, and roused suspicion, as it was supposed that they might have revolvers or some explosive substance concealed about them. Accordingly, when the Court adjourned, they were brought to the housekeeper's room, where they were searched by the female searcher. Two submitted to the search; the other refused, and she was not searched. The room to which they were taken had no blind to the window; but no person could see into it, as it was only overlooked by the windows of the Judge's and Jury's room, all of whom had left the Court, which was shut up at the time."



MR. THOMSON HANKEY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If an Army Cooking Apparatus, made and patented by Messrs. Jeakes and Co., has been submitted to or reported on to him; and whether it is not a much cheaper and much more efficient Cooking Apparatus than that of Captain Warren, R.N.?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON replied, that he was unable to answer the Question of the hon. Member, as the apparatus had not

been reported upon. He had given directions that both apparatuses should be tried at the Wellington Barracks.



COLONEL FORDE said, he wished to ask, Whether the Government will authorize the Governor of Downpatrick Gaol to allow the friends of Mr. Johnston to see him in private, and on his parole to take exercise through the gaol grounds?

THE EARL OF MAYO said, in reply, that he would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that Mr. Johnston might, if he had pleased, have left the gaol on the 10th of March last, for his sentence was commuted by the Lord Lieutenant on condition that he should enter into his own recognizances. This he refused to do, and he therefore still remained in gaol. He had every reason to believe that the ordinary regulations of the gaol had been considerably relaxed in Mr. Johnston's favour; but, although it was not his province to interfere with these matters, he had written to the Governor to intimate that no objection would be offered on the part of the Government to the relaxation of the rules of the gaol, provided that relaxation were made in accordance with the wishes and views expressed by the Board of Superintendence.

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The CLERK then read the following Article:

"That it be the 5th Article of Union that the Churches of England and Ireland, as now by law established, be united into one Protestant Episcopal Church, to be called the United Church of England and Ireland; and that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the said United Church shall be and shall remain in full force for ever, as the same are now by law established for the Church of England; and that the continuance and preservation of the said United Church, as the Established Church of England and Ireland, shall be deemed and taken to be

an essential and fundamental part of the Union; and that in like manner the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the Church of Scotland shall remain and be preserved as the same are now established by law, and by the Acts for the Union of the Two Kingdoms of England and Scotland."

MR. H. E. SURTEES moved that the Clerk read that portion of the Act of William and Mary that now applied to the Coronation Oath of Her Majesty.

The CLERK read the following formula prescribed for use on such occasions by the Act referred to :—

"ARCHBISHOP.-Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the people of this United King dom of Great Britain and Ireland, and the dominions thereto belonging, according to the statutes in Parliament agreed on and the respective laws and customs of the same?

"QUEEN.-I solemnly promise so to do. "ARCHBISHOP.-Will you to your power cause

law and justice in mercy to be executed in all

your judgments?

"QUEEN.-I will.

"ARCHBISHOP.-Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the Gospel, and the Protestant reformed religion established by law, and will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the United Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established within England and Ireland, and the territories thereunto belonging? of England and Ireland, and to the churches there And will you preserve unto the bishops and clergy committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them?

"QUEEN. All this I promise to do.

"Then the Queen, taking the coronation oath, would say these words-The things which I have here before promised I will perform and keep. So help me God.'"

MR. GLADSTONE: I now rise, Sir, to move that this House will immediately resolve itself into a Committee to consider the said Acts-that is to say, the Acts relating to the Established Church in Irethat the Gentlemen who have just interland; and I cannot for a moment regret posed Motions, accepted as matter of course by the House, should, by the passages they have caused to be read from the exist ing laws of this country, have reminded us upon how solemn a duty we are now about to enter. I likewise construe those Motions as implying that there are in this House men who intend to meet the plain, the broad, and intelligible proposition which I ask the House to accept by other propositions equally plain, broad, and intelligible, and that the great controversy-the solemn controversy, for such it is-in which we are about to engage, is not to be degraded.


that I go one step by saying that as in
an operation so extended there will ne-
cessarily arise matters to be considered
which are as much or more matters of
feeling than of strict rule and principle,
and as there will be likewise points which
may be subject to fair and legitimate
doubt, my opinion is that every disposition
should exist to indulge and to conciliate
feeling when it can be done, and in every
doubtful case to adopt that mode of pro-
ceeding which may be most consistent
with principles of the largest equity.
if I am asked, what I look upon as the con-
ditions under which the State should en-
deavour to enter upon a new state of things,
as far as regards the religious Establish-
ment in Ireland-if I am asked what it is
that, in endeavouring to put an end to the
present Establishment, I renounce for the
future, I would again say that that which
I renounce for the future is the attempt to
maintain, in association with the State,
under the authority of the State, or sup-
ported by the income of the State, or by
public or national property in any form,
a salaried or stipendiary clergy. But as
those connected with the Established re-

into a warfare of trick and contrivance. but is to be conducted on the other side of the House, as well as on this, in a spirit which befits the magnitude of the issue. Now, Sir, I originally proposed the Resolutions which I have placed on the Paper under the expectation that I should have explained them to a Committee of the whole House; but the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) exercising a perfectly legitimate discretion. has appended to the comparatively formal Motion, as far as its words are concerned, which I now propose to make, an Amendment raising the merits of the case, and has thus thrown upon me the responsibility and duty of endeavouring to explain to the Ilouse without delay the general nature of the proposition which I wish to submit to it in antagonism to that of the noble Lord. Sir, I intend to ask the House, if it should go into Committee, to assert in the first place, that in our opinion the time has come when the Established Church of Ireland should cease to exist as an Establishment. I do not think it would become me, either at the present moment, or at any subsequent stage of the debate, which may or may not follow, to make myself responsible, in all its important and com-ligion of Ireland are not the only persons plex details, for a plan which shall have for its aim to give effect to my purpose. It would show, I think, entire forgetfulness both of the limits of my duty and of the resources which I have at my command, and likewise forgetfulness of the limits of duty pertaining to a party in opposition to Her Majesty's Government, were I to undertake responsibility for the details, of such a plan. At the same time I, think, on the other hand, that I should not be justified in endeavouring to shelter myself under the freedom of a Member of the Opposition from distinctly indicating to the Government, the House, and the country the general bases and conditions of the measure which I wish to suggest for consideration. Therefore, Sir, I say, partly repeating and partly enlarging words which I used on a former occasion, that the aim and purpose of that measure is to cause the cessation of the Established Church of Ireland as far as it is a national Establishment of religion. That cessation must, in my judgment—I will not merely say might, nor ought, but, in my judgment, absolutely must-be subject to the condition, in order to make it an honourable and worthy mea sure, that every proprietary and every vested right shall receive absolute compensation and satisfaction. And beyond

interested in this matter, it is right that I should say, in regard to other bodies who now receive grants for purposes of religion, either directly for religious worship or for education having religious worship for its ultimate end, that, in my opinion, the more limited cases of those bodies must be met by the application of analogous principles of justice, equity, and even, I would say, indulgence; but beyond that I hold that the aim of all these proceedings would be to comply as far as I understood the words read by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) to comply with the language of the prayer of a petition he has presented, and to put an end within the realm of Ireland to all Grants from the Consolidated Fund to be applied for purposes of any religious denomination whatever. Having said this much I think I have only to add one more proposition, and to say that, when after satisfying every just and equitable claim, we shall have to contemplate at some future time the application of a residue, that residue will have, in my judg. ment, to be treated strictly and simply as an Irish fund for the benefit of Ireland. think that with these words I have satisfied the duty incumbent on me, not of proposing a distinct and perfect project upon


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