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to express their opinions on the subject | only given a private notice to the Minister had been denied the opportunity of so of the Crown, had risen a few minutes bedoing. That was the evil which had to fore a quarter past five o'clock, and made be remedied; but what he was afraid of an hour's speech in reference to a matter was that the Resolution would, on the of which the House had not been apone hand, operate to prevent Questions prised. The consequence was that, the being put which might very conveniently House having had no notice of the Quesbe asked; and, on the other hand, it would tion, the debate which might otherwise not check discussion, because, without a have been of general interest was confined Question, by other devices easily specified, to the noble Lord who put the Question and any Member of their Lordships' House to the Minister of the Crown. He thought might initiate a discussion upon any sub- that the debates of the House had suffered ject. He suggested that the Resolution, materially from the existence of that pracinstead of taking the form which had been tice. The objections to the Resolution were proposed, should be in these words- met by the Amendment of the noble and "It is desirable, where it is intended to make a learned Lord on the Woolsack. Statement, or raise a Discussion on asking a QuesMotion agreed to. tion, that Notice of the Question should be given in the Minutes and Orders of the Day."
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY moved the second Resolution—
"That the Committee of Selection are desired to exercise their Discretion in calling for the Service of Lords absent from the House."
Committee of Selection had already the LORD REDESDALE explained that the power of proposing the name of any Peer; but, as a matter of fact they did not propose Peers who were known to be absent, with him. The object of this Resolution nor any Peer without first communicating
seemed to be to direct the Committee of Selection to be less careful about obtaining the consent of a Peer before nominating him on a Committee. He saw no reason
Then it was moved to resolve, That it is desirable where it is intended to why the Resolution should not be adopted. make a Statement or raise a Discussion on asking a Question that Notice of the Question should be given in the Orders of the Day and Notices.(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE warned their Lordships against the proposed alteration, which he conceived was opposed to the spirit of the privileges and usages of that House from time immemorial. The Resolution which they already possessed, providing that the Business on the Paper should be proceeded with at a quarter past five o'clock was quite sufficient, and he preferred it to the one now moved. It would be very injudicious for their Lordships to bind themselves down in the manner now proposed.
EARL STANHOPE said, his noble Friend who had just sat down did not seem aware of the precise grievance which it was sought to remedy. He was surprised that one who had attended so closely to the debates in that House as his noble Friend should not have been aware of numerous occasions on which a noble Lord, who had
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE remarked that the Committee of Selection did exercise their own discretion at present.
EARL GRANVILLE said, he wished to see adopted much the same system as was adopted in the House of Commons with regard to Members selected to serve on Committees. Many Peers who were perfectly able to perform these duties avoided doing so by absenting themselves from the House, except upon great party debates and divisions; and thus the matter had an important bearing on the attendance in that House a subject which had been commented on out of doors. This was a great grievance, which he should like to see put an end to. Then, again, many young Members of the House-having made their engagements for the next month, whether for pleasure, business, or otherwise--now refrain from coming down to the House, where they might train themselves for taking part in its discussions, from a fear that if they showed their faces there they might be pounced upon by the noble Lord
(Lord Redesdale), or the other Peers who selected the Private Bill Committees.
LORD REDESDALE said, he was sorry if any noble Lord stayed away from the fear of being asked to serve; because it had not been his practice to ask any Peer to serve on a Committee when he could plead any important engagement, or any other sufficient reason. Owing to the time when the Private Business came up to their Lordships' House, it would be impossible to appoint their Committees by rota in the manner adopted in the other House. At first they might find many Peers willing to serve, while few would offer themselves afterwards, and some would have to serve twice; but there would not be the same disposition as was now shown to undertake those duties voluntarily. The present system, even when there was a considerable pressure of business, worked well.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON wished the Resolution could be brought back to the original form in which it stood in the Report of the Committee; and if the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) gave the House an opportunity of dividing on his proposition, he would support him. The Resolution, as it now stood, was mere surplusage, as it only asked the Committee of Selection to exercise a discretionary power, which they already exercised.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH said, the proposal of his noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal was not that the House should give a discretion to the Committee of Selection which they already possessed, but that they should be requested to exercise that discretion when deemed advantageous.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX said, what was really desired was that the absence of a noble Lord from that House should not
exempt him from serving. He would, therefore, suggest the adoption of words to this
"That the Absence of any noble Lord from this House, except on sufficient Reason, ought not to prevent the Committee of Selection from calling for his Services."
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY preferred the words just suggested to those proposed by the Lord Privy Seal; and he trusted that the Resolution, when adopted, would not remain a dead letter. It was both desirable and just that Peers who were in the habit of absenting themselves from the House should be called upon to serve on Committees when their services were quired.
EARL STANHOPE opposed the Resolution, which he regarded as open to great practical objection.
EARL COWPER said, that some years ago he moved for a Return of the number of Peers who had served on Committees. He believed that in the year to which the Return referred only 120 Peers out of the whole number of Members of their Lordships' House had served on a Committee at all. The consequence was that many Peers had been obliged to serve twice; and, besides the Chairmen of the different Committees, one Peer had served on three Committees. Thus a heavy burden was entailed upon conscientious Peers by the idleness and default of others. The system under which the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale) obtained Members to sit on Private Bills must remind their Lordships of the system of recruiting for the British army. There was one great difference certainly; for he had never heard of the noble Lord offering anyone anything to drink; but he was obliged to go round and to whisper first to one and then to another, holding out hopes where he could that the inquiry would not be a very long one. He should be sorry to see a system of conscription adopted for the British army; but a well-managed conscription for compelling the Members of that House to take their fair share in Private Business would be a very good thing.
LORD CHELMSFORD moved an Amendment
To leave out from ("Selection") to the end of the Motion for the Purpose of inserting the Words following, ("should in the Exercise of their Discretion call more frequently than at present for the Service of Lords absent from the House.")
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY could not agree to the Amendment.
EARL STANHOPE thought that the Amendment of the noble Viscount (Viscount Halifax) exactly met the wants of the case. Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.
Then it was moved to resolve,
That the Absence of any Lord from this House, except for sufficient Reason, ought not to prevent the Committee of Selection from calling for his Services. (The Viscount Halifax.)
Motion agreed to.
That in entering in the Journals the Reports of Bills amended in Committees of the Whole House, the only Name entered therewith shall be that of the Lord who moves the Reception of the re-Report and takes Charge of the Bill in that Stage. -(The Lord Privy Seal.)
MINUTES. SUPPLY-considered in Committee PUBLIC BILLS-Ordered-County General Assessment (Scotland)*; Peerage (Ireland).* First Reading-Peerage (Ireland) * ; County General Assessment (Scotland)* . Second Reading-Petty Sessions and Lock-up Houses ; Prisons (Compensation to Officers) ; Renewable Leasehold Conversion (Ireland) Act Extension ; Metropolis Gas .
-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES-Classes I to VII.
Committee- Local Government Supplemental' .
Report-Local Government Supplemental . Considered as amended-Industrial Schools (Ireland)* .
night. Now, he came down to the House shortly after three o'clock for the purpose of securing a seat, and placed his hat on a vacant seat next to that of the hon. Member for King's County. A few minutes afterwards he returned, and found that his hat had been removed, and that his seat was occupied by the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen. He remonstrated with the hon. Member, because he had perceived that it was the usual courtesy of the House to respect hats. The hon. Member told him that he had been twelve years in the House, and he replied that he had had the honour of sitting in the House sixteen years, and during that time he had never removed any hon. Gentleman's hat. He thus found himself without a seat; and, thinking that it would be very much for the convenience of the House to know, he wished to ask Mr. Speaker, whether the rule he had mentioned would be adhered to?
COLONEL SYKES said, he thought the House would expect from him some explanation as to the charge of want of courtesy on his part. He disclaimed any want of courtesy. The rule of the House was that no Member should have a claim to a particular seat unless he was at Prayers, and unless he put his card on the
PRIVILEGE-MEMBERS' SEATS IN THIS back of the seat; but there were a great
COLONEL GREVILLE-NUGENT said, he wished to call the attention of the House to a Question of Privilege. The number of seats in the House was very limited, and it would be extremely convenient to Members to know the rule upon which seats were to be retained for the night. Last year a Question arose upon this very matter with respect to two Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who had placed their cards on the Bench before the Speaker came in to Prayers. On that occasion he believed it was ruled that it was necessary a Member should be present at Prayers in order to secure his seat for the night, and that no card left upon the seat before that time would entitle an hon. Member to a seat for the night unless he had been present at Prayers. He thought it was also laid down on that occasion that if any hon. Member placed his hat upon the seat, it was to be supposed that he remained within the precincts of the House, and if he returned before the Speaker came in to Prayers he was entitled to retain the seat for the
number of Members who were constant in their attendance at Prayers, and who therefore by the courtesy of the House were allowed constantly to occupy certain seats. [No, no."] He said Yes. On that very Bench there were five Members who continually occupied the same seats in consequence of their constant attendance at Prayers for many years. During the three Parliaments he had been in the House he had occupied the same seat, or the corre sponding one on the opposite side, and it had rarely been occupied, though accident had kept him from Prayers. He had an instance of what he stated to be the custom in the case of the hon. Member below him-the hon. Member for Sheffield, who had occupied the same seat ever since he (Colonel Sykes) had been in the House.
MR. SPEAKER: The Question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Longford (Colonel Greville-Nugent) has been often under the consideration of the House, and the House has laid down rules upon the subject for the observance of its Members. The hon. and gallant Member accurately stated what passed relative to this question last year, and the words that were
LORD ROBERT MONTAGU: Sir, it is true that Mr. Whitworth has made a most munificent offer, in a letter addressed to the First Lord of the Treasury, on the 18th of March last. Mr. Whitworth proposes to found thirty scholarships of the annual value of £100 each, to be open to public competition, and to be obtained by proof of intelligence and efficiency in mechanics and cognate sciences. I need not say that that generous offer was accepted with thanks by the Committee of Council on Education, and the Minute embodying his letter, which is the only Paper on the subject, I propose to lay on the table of the House.
used upon that occasion are now before | Mr. Whitworth has offered a very large me. It was then observed that hon. sum to be applied in promotion of TechniMembers who came down early in the cal Instruction; and, if so, whether he can morning to attend to their duties were state what is the precise nature of the placed at a disadvantage, because, being endowment, and whether he can lay upon confined to the Committee-room, they the table of the House any Papers on the could not come into the House until their subject? seats had been secured by others. Under these circumstances it was decided that any Member who, having come down to the House in the morning in the discharge of his duty on a Committee, shall before Prayers place his hat on a seat as an indication of his personal attendance within the precincts of the House shall be permitted to retain that seat, as though he were present in the House. Arrangements were made by the Serjeant-at-Arms to give effect to the wishes of the House, and those arrangements were generally acquiesced in. I think, therefore, that after the discussion that occurred last year, it may be taken to be one of the rules of the House with respect to this matter; and under these circumstances any Gentleman who, having placed his hat upon a seat, and being in immediate attendance upon the House, on returning here has a right to expect that that seat will be reserved for him. That I understand to be a rule, generally accepted by the House, and one therefore which all Members ought to respect.
MERCHANT SHIPPING CONSOLIDATION
MR. GRAVES said, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Board of Trade, If he can say when the Merchant Shipping
Consolidation Bill will be introduced?
MR. STEPHEN CAVE replied that, in consequence of his hon. Friend's Notice, he had communicated with the person who had been engaged to draft this Bill, and who had been unexpectedly delayed, owing to circumstances of a private nature, and by no fault of his own. That gentleman had informed him that he was giving up other business in order to devote himself to the work of consolidation, and drawing new clauses; and that he hoped to have completed his work before the Session was much farther advanced.
COURT OF CHANCERY-SALARIES AND
MR. CHILDERS said, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is his intention to propose to Parliament, during the present Session, to charge the salaries and expenses of the English Court of Chancery on the Consolidated Fund and Votes of Parliament, as is now the case with the other Courts of Common Law and Equity in the United Kingdom; and, whether, as the salaries, compensations, and other expenses of the under the Act of 1867, he intends to Irish Court of Chancery are so charged apply to Parliament for power to wind up the Suitors' Fee Fund, Exchequer Compensation and Fee Fund, Chancery Compensation and Fee Fund, Bankruptcy and Compensation Fund, and Box Fund. Question of which he had given Notice. He would put, at the same time, the other
Whether it is the intention of the Governcommenced by the Committee of which ment to follow up the inquiry as to fees, Mr. Goschen was Chairman, appointed by the late Board of Treasury?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, it was not the intention of the Government to introduce a measure for the purpose of winding up the funds alluded to by the hon. Member, nor did the Government propose to introduce, at present at all events, a Bill to deal with the Court of Chancery in the way suggested by the hon. Member.
ference to the hon. Member's Question re- | Section of the Act of 1860.
SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISE said, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, Whether he has noticed a paragraph in a Medical Journal relating to a recent outbreak of small-pox at Woolwich, in which it is stated that "four new" and "eleven fresh cases were vaccinated;" and how this statement is to be reconciled with
that of the Vice President of Council on Education, on the Vaccination Bill of 1867, that "small-pox is absolutely preventable by vaccination?"
LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, in reply, that he had not spoken of an imperfect vaccination of individuals, or of a partial vaccination of the population. By a perfect vaccination of the whole people the disease could be stamped out. As an example he might mention that this had been done in one district by the energy of Dr. Hughes, of Mold, in North Wales, The paragraph from the British Medical Journal, which the hon. Baronet had sent him, was favourable to that view. commenced thus
"Arrest of the Small-pox at Woolwich.-We are very glad to learn that the careful measures of vaccination and visitation instituted on the advice of Dr. Seaton, at Woolwich, are really telling now."
claim would accrue until the estimated expiration of a lease which was held for three lives, two of which were under thirty years of age. At such expiration. the Commissioners were bound to consider the wants and circumstances of the place. Kilpec had no claim in respect of population, which is only 267.
MR. LABOUCHERE said, he would
He was happy to be enabled to say that small-pox was nearly eradicated at Wool-beg to ask the Secretary of State for the
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERSBENEFICE OF KILPEC, HEREFORD.
COLONEL BARTTELOT said, he wished to ask the Judge Advocate, Whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners admit that the benefice of Kilpec, in the county of Hereford, has a local claim upon them for a grant in augmentation; and, if so, why no grant has yet been made to the benefice, although its income does not exceed £10 per annum?
MR. MOWBRAY replied that Kilpec had at present no local claim. All the property in the parish in the possession of the Commissioners came within the special exception contained in the 12th
Home Department, Whether he has any objection to lay on the table Copies of all Correspondence in his Office or in the Office of the Chief Commissioner of Police, respecting the dismissal of police sergeant Stone from the Metropolitan Police Force?
MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, he found that Stone was dismissed in 1864, and the case had on several occasions been investigated. A gratuity had been given to that officer, for which he expressed his thanks. He thought the matter ended there, as Stone did not com. plain of any other grievance, and asked for some other employment. The hon. Member was perfectly welcome to see the Papers, which were very voluminous, but he did not think any advantage would result from their being printed.