liberality and did much to alleviate distress. in 5 per cent stock, which was then at These facts, and the necessity of finding 110, terms which would have been the some employment for the people of Orissa, means of increasing the value of the Comat the time of their suffering, were the oc- pany's stock considerably more than the casion of the advances to which the hon. 25 per cent which the hon. Member had Member referred. Having been told in the spoken of. That despatch came into his House that the Company was not to be (Sir Stafford Northcote's) hands, and the assisted, the hon. Member seemed to think Council decided that it would be right to he had been deceived by the Secretary of offer to purchase the Company's works; but State, and his council; and he seemed to that conclusion was not come to without think that that was owing to some proceed- much hesitation, and after full consideration ings on his Sir (Stafford Northcote's) part, of all the circumstances he had stated. but the advances were made by the Gover- The Government felt that it was important nor General in India without consulting the for India that these works should be carried Secretary of State, and it seemed to him on, though the Company had not the means that they were rightly made, seeing that of carrying them on with activity and there was a means of profitably expending success; and her Majesty's Government the money. If employment had not been resolved not to entertain the question of a provided in this way it must have been done guarantee. There was such great force in by setting the poor to dig holes one day, and the argument of the Governor General, as fill them up the next. It appeared to him it related to the works that were not comthat having the machinery ready to hand pleted in Behar, that they would have been for the profitable expenditure of money the prepared to offer almost any terms to get Government were quite right in so laying it them into the hands of the Government; out. Accordingly, about £120,000 was ad- but with regard to Orissa it was of less vanced on the understanding to which he importance to the Government to purhad referred. When the Company were chase the Company's rights because a conasked to undertake the work they said they siderable amount of work had been actually were ready enough to spend the money, executed. On careful consideration of the but they did not wish to make the ad- whole question, they came to the conclusion ditional outlay on their own account. They, that the terms proposed by the Governor in fact, found that their water was not taken General were excessive. The hon. Member so rapidly as they expected, and that their had said that the Secretary for State was— works were not producing a profit; and he would not repeat the elegant expression therefore it was not in their power, in the of the hon. Member-but he was weak, then state of the money market, to go on and his council was at the mercy of jobbers with their works. They, therefore, pro- and speculators, and that they had made an posed to lie on their oars, and wait till the extravagant and improvident bargain. But works which they had executed began to looking to the Correspondence, which was be profitable, when the public would come in the hands of the public, he could see no forward and provide the funds necessary to evidence whatever to support such a charge. complete the works. The Government The Governor General proposed the pursaid that might be perfectly legitimate on chase on certain terms. The Government the part of a company, but it did not at determined not to offer those terms but that time meet the wishes of the Govern- lower terms. They said, "We will give ment, who could not wait; and it was under you the amount which you have expended, these circumstances, and looking to the and £50,000 over. It was said that circumstances he had mentioned, that the the stock of the Company was at a Governor General wrote the despatch the large discount, and that those terms were hon. Member had referred to. This brought therefore unreasonably high. But it should up the history to the point at which it be- be borne in mind that the Company had came the duty of the Secretary of State in bona fide raised this money, that they had Council to act. The Governor General had expended it in good work, and that, though written an elaborate despatch, pointing out it was not now profitable, the Government that the Company had failed to realize the had reason to believe that when the system great profits they had looked forward to, was completed it would become profitable. referring to the complications that had They, therefore, thought it fair to give arisen between the Company and the back to the Company the whole amount Government, and proposing to buy up the they had expended, with a certain sum over interests of the Company, not at par, but and above to compensate them for any in convenience which might result from parting with a portion of their establishment, and in consideration of any just claims they might have arising from the expectation of future profit. There was no doubt that, as far as they had gone, the Company had done a good work for India; though whether they had done a good work for themselves was another question, into which he would not enter. Having made this as a final offer, after full consideration, the Government thought it right to make known on the same day, through the public Press, before even the directors had received the official communication, the nature of the offer that was made. The effect was that the shares, which had been at a discount, rose to par; but he was told that this was nothing more than a nominal quotation, and that, pending the proceedings, little or no business was done. It had been stated that the offer of the Government was not favourably received by the Company. He did not know whether it had been refused or not; but he had heard that the offer was received at the meeting of shareholders as not only unsatisfactory but insulting. Indeed, quite as strong language as had been applied to him by the hon. Member (Mr. Smollett) had been applied to him by the shareholders. He had received letters from various persons, in which he was accused of a desire to "rob" the shareholders; and he did not know what motives had not been imputed to him, or what language had been used to describe his "audacity" in making an offer which the hon. Member had fairly admitted to be very liberal. He was told, "You know the position of the Company, and you are going to take the profits out of our mouths and transfer them to the Government." The directors had been instructed to ask the Government to alter the terms; but the Government had always refused to do so, and would not give a guarantee. But they also said that they neither had the means nor the wish to force the Company to sell to them; that they made the offer from no feeling of illwill or wish to disparage what had been done by the Company. There, however, was the fact-while in Orissa the Company had done a good deal, in Behar they had done nothing; and it was the duty of the Government, for the interests of the people of India, to carry these works on either themselves or through others. If the Company were able to carry on these works, let them do so; if they were not able, the Government were prepared to complete them, and it was their duty so to do. In Orissa the Company might possibly be able to carry on the works; but in Behar there really seemed no chance of their being able to raise money and carry on the works for a long time, if at all. Meanwhile, here was a large and important district from which the Government was excluded because this Company had got a concession which they could not use. Under these circumstances the Government said, "If you will give up the Behar works we will make no further proposal respecting Orissa; but we will assist you to complete these works by lending you £500,000, at 5 per cent, upon the security of the works." Now the works had cost £700,000 or £800,000, and it would be a condition that the loan of £500,000 should be further expended upon the works. If the Company were to make default in payment of the interest or in re-payment of the principal, the works would, no doubt, be a perfectly good security for the advance. But, so far as he had been informed, the directors did not consider these terms acceptable, and thought it would not be reasonable that they should give the works as security for the loan. In that case, of course, it was for them to refuse the loan. A meeting was to be held very shortly, and then the proposals of the Government would be considered, and they would receive a final answer. Meanwhile, it was right that there should be no mistake. The Government had made an offer which would still hold good as far as the Indian Council was concerned; they had never varied the terms of the offer, and did not intend to do so. It would be for the Company to consider whether these terms were fair, and, if not, what course they would take; the Government, recognizing in them fellow-workers in the performance of a most important duty, had no wish to interfere with any fair profits they might derive from works which they undertook, no doubt, as much from patriotic motives as from a wish to make a good investment. But he was sorry that the Government had ever entered into engagements with private companies. If they had kept these works of irrigation in their own hands they would have avoided great complications. For a length of time, however, the Government had great difficulty in finding money to carry on such works. It was not easy to extend taxation in India, and it was only lately that the Government warded these works should be accused had adopted a decided policy in borrowing of "lobbying?" He hoped the House money for works of this kind. Now, would not treat those who had done such money would be borrowed freely for works service to India in the spirit the hon. Memwhich could be shown to be of a good, ber had done, And were they going to substantial, and profitable character; and refuse any guarantees for irrigation works, he earnestly hoped that, whether through after all the millions that had been adtheir own agency or that of others, this vanced in spreading railways over India, great and important field of labour would and when everyone acknowledged now that be properly cultivated. He had no wish under no other system than that of guaranon this occasion to trespass further upon tees could India have been so effectually the general question which the hon. Mem- and speedily covered with those great ber for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird) proposed to works? The hon Member had read an exraise hereafter, in connection with works tract from a despatch of Sir John Lawrence, of irrigation. He would only say with from which he had made it appear that regard to the Motion that he hoped it would the Governor General undervalued the not be pressed. It was one which would works in question; but he (Mr. Kinnaird) be delusive in its character, and probably would like to read two extracts which the object of the hon. Member would be would show that the contrary was the case, sufficiently attained by the discussion which and that in the frightful famine which came it would elicit. upon Orissa it was the Governor General who made the first offer to the Irrigation Company. And what did the Commissioners' appointed to inquire into the causes and extent of the late famine in Orissa report, and especially Mr. Campbell? They bore testimony to the admirable nature of the Company's works, and to the fact that if such works had been earlier attended to, the loss of nearly a million of lives during the famine would never have occurred. The Governor General, in the despatch to which he had referred, said MR. KINNAIRD said, that they had been accustomed in that House to some of the older Members, such as the late Colonel Sibthorpe, assuming a certain licence of speech, and using sometimes offensive expressions in which none of the other Members indulged. But he was surprised at the repetition of this by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Smollett), who had employed language in that discussion which it was hardly proper to use in that House." The hon. Gentleman had talked of “adventurers;" and had said that the Madras Irrigation Company was "a great swindle." Upon reflection, he would, he was sure, regret that he had been led into the use of such language. The hon. Member had also attacked by name the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) who was then Secretary of State for India, and under whom the scheme of irrigation had been carried out. But the House knew very well that of all those who were engaged in the conduct of administrative Departments under the Government of Lord Derby there was none more able or more painstaking than the noble Lord who was then Secretary of State for India; and he (Mr. Kinnaird) believed that the noble Lord retained now precisely the same opinion, which he held when in office, as to the wisdom and propriety of promoting works of irrigation. The immense advantage of these works was not so generally admitted at that time as it was now, and therefore the noble Lord deserved the greater credit for what he had done. Was it a proper thing, then that the Gentlemen who had for "You are aware that, notwithstanding the strong opinions which we hold as to the inconvenience of the arrangement that has been entered into with the Company, it has been our earnest wish to do all in our power to facilitate the operations of the Company, and to act fully up to the spirit of any actual, or implied engagements entered into with them in past years. If it be necessary to adduce any distinct proof of this disposition on the part of the Government of India, trust to this Company the execution of the Soane Canal project, and to make grants of money to aid in the construction of the works in Cuttack, the Company's funds having proved insufficient to in the altered condition of this province, we deem secure their prosecution with that activity which, so desirable. And we may assure Her Majesty's Government that it will continue to be our desire to act in this same manner so long as the present arrangements between the Government and the Company shall be maintained. we would refer to our recent resolutions to in "But the terrible calamity which has recently fallen on Orissa and Western Bengal has forced upon us the consideration of the question, whether we can any longer with propriety permit the expossible to induce the Company to give up their isting arrangements to continue in force, if it be right under their contract. "We entirely disclaim the intention of making any reflection on the Company for the manner in out, or for the mode in which they have raised or which their operations have been hitherto carried applied their capital. It is incontestable that a large sum has been raised and spent, and it is even probable that had the Company not come forward, the Government would, up to the present time, have done much less than has been done towards the construction of irrigation works in Cuttack. But the position of the Government with relation to the execution of irrigation works has, within the last year, become entirely changed, and our business is no longer with the past but with the present, and the immediate future, and it is impossible for us to avoid the conclusion that, for the reasons we have above given, the means of the Company henceforth will not only be re latively far inferior to those of the Government, but absolutely insufficient for the real necessities of the country." And as to the nature of the works the Governor General said "We may mention, however, that the works have been visited by Colonel Morton, R.E., an officer of great experience in irrigation works, and also by Colonel Nicholls, R.E., the Chief Engineer of Bengal. Both these officers and also Mr. Crommelin, the Superintending Engineer in the service of the Government at Cuttack, agree in stating that the works are good. These statements have not been made on any critical examination nor in any official Report; but we are satisfied that, in a general way, they are correct. In the same way we learn that in point of actual cost—that is, of the actual outlay upon the works themselves-they are cheap. So far, then, we have some grounds for believing that the Government would not pay any extravagant sum in taking over the works as proposed." The Governor General, therefore, it would be seen had spoken highly and fairly of the Company's acts, and on the authority of two engineers had stated that the works were cheap; and yet the hon. Member had thought proper to denounce them in the strongest possible language. The hon. Gentleman was surprised that at a time of great commercial distress an enterprize of this kind had not paid, and he seemed to expect that the works should be remunera tive the first year. But everyone knew that until irrigation works were complete they could not fairly be expected to be So. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) knew that the whole thing was done openly and above-board. He would not enter upon the other topics adverted to by the hon. Member except as to one point. The hon. Gentleman had been pleased to speak in a way which was derogatory to Sir Arthur Cotton. But it was well known that Sir Arthur Cotton was a man of great practical ability, as well as that he had great enthusiasm in the work of irrigation; and unless great enterprizes were taken up by men of sanguine character they were not likely at first to be prosecuted successfully. Sir Arthur Cotton had been honoured by his Sovereign for having been one of the first who had directed attention to the necessity existing for these great works of irrigation, and the House would, he was sure, regret if, when such a man was attacked, no one had risen to defend him from false aspersions. Sir Arthur Cotton was perfectly unconnected with the company, he did not hold a share in it, and if he took an interest in works of irrigation it was solely because he was sensible of their great value in such a country as India. MR. J. B. SMITH said, he did not agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Smollett) in his views on the subject of irrigation. On the contrary, he believed that such works would be alike profitable to the Government and beneficial to the people of India. He had always contended that works of irrigation ought to be undertaken solely by the Government, and not by private individuals or companies. His reason for holding that opinion was this:-The land in India belonged to the Government, and the number of tenants on the land to be irrigated was very great. It was therefore impossible to collect the water rates except by the instrumentality of the Government, and as these works yielded great profit the Government were acting as agents for, and were collecting large sums of money merely to hand over to private individuals. What he had long complained of was the dog-in-the-manger policy of the Government namely, that they would neither execute the great irrigation works, which were so necessary to the welfare of India themselves, nor allow others to do it. At length, however, the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) made the experiment of granting a great work to the Madras Irrigation Company, and he was disposed to think that, at the time, this was a judicious course, as it afforded the opportunity of comparing the system of private works and Government works. He congratulated the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for India on the conclusious at which he had arrived namely, that the construction of works of irrigation were of the highest value and importance to the people, and profitable to the Government of India-that it is most advantageous to both that they should be executed by the Government; and that for this purpose they should abandon the uncertain policy hitherto pursued of making reproductive works out of surplus revenue instead of raising public loans for this Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. CONDITION OF CEYLON. MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE. specific object and carrying out the works, the public works, and over the income with as little delay as possible. This he and expenditure of the island, which was (Mr. J. B. Smith) believed to be a sound promised them in 1848 by Earl Grey, who course, and it was the one which he had stated that the time had come when full advocated in that House during the last control over the expenditure should be fifteen years. given to the Council of Ceylon, and promised at the same time that a despatch should be sent out, laying down rules with reference to the taxation, the military expenditure, and other subjects of complaint. It had been said that the whole of the complaints arose from the desire of the colonists to shirk their fair share of colonial military expenditure, and to expend their whole income upon local purposes, leaving the defence of the colony to be defrayed out of Imperial taxation. He was sure that the right hon. Gentleman would not to-night use, or repeat any such argument. In justice to the men whose energy and enterprize had built up that noble dependency, he was sure it would not be urged by the right hon. Gentleman that their grievances were only traceable to the mean selfishness of seeking to avoid the payment of the military expenditure of the letter from a gentleman who was formerly a Member of the House, and who was well known for his solid judgment and his intelligence (Sir James Elphinstone), who bad MR. WATKIN then rose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the condition of Ceylon and the action of its Government. He hoped for the forbearance of the House, as Ceylon was not a very popular subject; but if he wanted any reason for asking the House to agree to this Inquiry, he would find it in the fact that the population of the country, if the Government Returns were to be trus ted, had been reduced from 2,300,000 in 1863 to 2,000,000 in 1866, and this in the face of the other fact, which also appeared in these Returns, that there was an increase of births over deaths, which would show that the decrease was owing to emi-colony. On this subject he would read a gration. When this question was brought forward on former occasions, the reply of the Colonial Secretary was that the island ought to be annexed to the continent of India. It was only a few years ago, how-large interest in Ceylon. In that letter he ever, that this question was fully discussed by a Committee of the House of Commons, and they came to the unanimous opinion that the circumstances of India and of Ceylon were so different that it would be highly inexpedient and unjust to annex the one to the other. The particular reasons he had for bringing this question before the House he might very shortly sum up. The Chamber of Commerce at Colombo and the Planters' Association at Kandy, both of them influential bodies, had requested him to take the matter up, as representations had been sent from the inhabitants of Ceylon, strongly backed up by the Press, unanimously urging that their grievances should be inquired into, and those representations had not been treated with respect. They did not ask the House to interfere until they had for many years vainly asked the Colonial Office to do them substantial justice. For the last ten years scarcely two had passed without memorials having been sent over from the Legislative Chamber, signed by official and non-official members alike, and often supported by the Governor, asking that they might have that control over pointed out the necessity for railway extension and for a revision of taxation, and expressed a hope that he (Mr. Watkin) would persevere in his Motion for a Committee. Sir James stated that the colonists did not object to pay for a sufficient force for the protection of the island; what they did object to was that Ceylon should be treated as a garrison for Imperial purposes, and that they should have to support that garrison on a scale far beyond what was required for the purpose of internal or external defence. That they were denied a line of railway into the coffee districts, and that the rates on the railways now open were too high; a large duty was laid upon rice, which was the staple food of the peo ple, and the taxes on land were so levied as to act as a discouragement to agriculture. In addition to this, Ceylon was called upon to maintain establishments at Galle and at Trincomalee which were for purely Imperial purposes. The disparity of numbers between the European and the Native population was no reason for witholding local self-government, since it was on the former that the prosperity of the island mainly depended. He felt assured that the House |