great deal to do with the restricted immigration from certain illiterate localities.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That being so, these facts having been obtained without a department of education, why have one now?

Mr. DORE. Why isn't it possible to get those facts now?

The CHAIRMAN. I have been asking repeatedly if you people will get behind the Bureau of Education, and say that it should have sufficient financial support from the Government to accomplish some of the things that ought to be done.

Mr. DORE. If they are not things that would tend directly or indirectly to put the control of education in the Federal power, I can see no reason why, with an increase in expenditures, an increase in the appropriation for that bureau should not be made.

The CHAIRMAN. So you don't see any particular danger in the things to be accomplished as set forth in this bill?

Mr. DORE. Yes, I do. I see a great danger. The great danger is the setting up of a secretary in the President's Cabinet.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, eliminating that feature.

Mr. DORE. Well, then the bill isn't necessary.

Mr. KVALE. You take out the heart of the bill if you eliminate that. The CHAIRMAN. I say if it could be done. You see no praticular danger in the activities outlined in the bill here.

Mr. DORE. Except they centralize the whole of the Federal educational power in one man. That is a danger.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you wouldn't want even the present head of the bureau to go ahead and do the things set forth in the bill? Mr. DORE. Not if it were all centralized in one man, a national secretary for education. This bureau is a research bureau, is it not? The CHAIRMAN. That is what we have here. Those are some of the things to be achieved.

Mr. DORE. But in addition to that you have a number of other departments consolidated with it. You have the creation of a Federal conference on education, and a national council.

Mr. BLACK. What do you think of that?

Mr. DORE. I think it is a very bad thing. I think it is tending toward the very evils I have been attempting to describe, namely, it attempts to canonize educational power toward the Federal Government. That is a bad thing in principle, and a particularly vicious thing in America, where we have been committed from our foundation to the very antithesis of that, namely, that States should control education. I don't see how the Federal Government could teach children to read and write unless it had control of education. Mr. FLETCHER. You really believe the States should be allowed to control education? Don't you think the local communities should be allowed to control?

Mr. DORE. In our system of government the States and the States alone are the ones who have civil jurisdiction over education, and not the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we are all agreed on that.

Mr. DORE. May I read just this quotation from Thomas Jefferson? He was not speaking of education, but he was speaking of the cen

tralizing power in the Federal Government and of the bureaucracy that it creates. This is taken from his second inaugural address:

At home, fellow citizens, you best know whether we have done well or ill. The suppression of unnecessary offices or useless establishments and expenses enable us to discontinue our internal taxes. This covering our land with officers and opening doors to their intrusions had already begun that process of domiciliary vexation which once entered is scarcely to be restrained, reaching successively every article of produce and property.

I believe that this bill, innocent as it appears, is what he has designated there as a process of "domiciliary vexation which once entered upon is not to be restrained."

The CHAIRMAN. You say he was not speaking of education?

Mr. DORE. No. He was speaking of the abolition of internal taxes.

The CHAIRMAN. Here are some of the statements of men who were speaking of education.

George Washington.-Promote, then, as an object of primary importance institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it should be enlightened.

Thomas Jefferson.-If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

John Jay. I consider knowledge to be the soul of the Republic, and as the weak and the wicked are generally in alliance, as much care should be taken to diminish the number of the former as of the latter.

John Adams.-Laws for the liberal education of youth * * * are so extremely wise and useful that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant.

James Madison.-Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.

Horace Mann.-The common school is the greatest discovery ever made by man. Other social organizations are curative and remedial; this is a preventive and an antidote. They come to heal diseases and wounds; this, to make the physical and moral frame invulnerable to them.

Abraham Lincoln.-I view it (education) as the most important subject which we as a people can be engaged in.

Daniel Webster. On the diffusion of education among the people rests the preservation and perpetuation of our free institutions.

Herbert Hoover. The Nation as a whole has the obligation of such measures toward its children, as a whole, as will yield to them an equal opportunity at their start in life.

Charles Evans Hughes. The American ideal is the ideal of equal educational opportunity, not merely for the purpose of enabling one to know how to earn a living and to fit into an economic status more or less fixed, but of giving play to talent and aspiration and to development of mental and spiritual power.

President Warren G. Harding. The Federal Government should extend aid to the States for the promotion of physical education, the Americanization of the foreign-born, the eradication of illiteracy, the better training of teachers, and for promoting free educational opportunities for all the children of all the people. H. A. L. Fisher.-That nation which employs the best teachers with the highest pay and as a part of the best school system will be the best governed and therefore the greatest nation.

H. G. Wells.-The teacher-whether mother, priest, or schoolmaster is the real maker of histroy; rulers, statesmen, and soldiers do but work out the possibilities of cooperation or conflict the teacher creates.

And so on down the line, every prominent statesman taking that position. They were speaking specifically on education.

Mr. DORE. Čertainly, but, Mr. Chairman, I have wholly failed to express my mind if you think that I wouldn't subscribe to every

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word they said, and I will tell you now, if through some grotesque inadequacy of expression, I have given you any other idea-I havn't used any language that could connote it but, speaking for myself as an individual citizen, and through the alumni associations I represent, and for every individual in them, I would subscribe to every word and every thought with regard to education uttered by the fathers of the country. We believe in education. But they haven't suggested in these quotations that it be in the power of the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Every person who comes before this committee concedes that education is the function of the State so far as the control of education goes.

Mr. DORE. Then to what purpose do you quote the fathers of the country?

The CHAIRMAN. Because you are constantly reminding us that the people in support of this bill are trying to take away that control, and that it will be bad if this bill passes. You are impugning their motives.

Mr. DORE. Not their motives; their judgment. I believe they have high motives. I have already said I did not impute to them motives any less noble than we aspire to. It is a question of judgment. No one of the fathers of the country suggested that that fostering of education should be done from a central national source. No one ever suggested the founding of a department of education or anything analogous to it, here in Washington.

Mr. FLETCHER. That has been suggested by President Coolidge. The CHAIRMAN. President Harding also.

Mr. FLETCHER. Presidents Harding and Coolidge.

Mr. BLACK. It is too bad we didn't have a secretary of education in President Harding's Cabinet.

Mr. DORE. President Coolidge uniformly opposed the prior bills with regard to this Bureau of Education, and all that can be said about any change of mind of the President is that he stated the other day in what was quoted here this morning, that while education was essentially a State matter, he thought it might be well to have a Cabinet officer. But the chairman was quoting the fathers of the country. Mr. FLETCHER. But in his message to Congress he advocated legislation at this time.

Mr. DORE. In his latest message.

Mr. FLETCHER. Yes.

Mr. DORE. I believe he did.

Mr. FLETCHER. And also I believe it is a plank in the Republican platform.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That doesn't recommend itself to us Democrats. Mr. BLACK. Honest government was also a plank.

Mr. DORE. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I believe everybody in this room, every decent American citizen, and certainly every member of our organization, is in favor of the widest and broadest education possible. We abhor the thought that there should be illiteracy in this country. We wish to remove ignorance wherever it exists.

These 75 colleges and universities established for laymen, the scores of seminaries and the hundreds of academies, secondary schools, and colleges for women, and the thousands of elementary schools for the education of children-all established in the United States under the auspices of the Catholic faith-show the profound interest in education which this single religious organization in our country has everywhere manifested. These colleges and schools exist without any support from public taxation. They are a blessing and a boon, rendered possible through the sacrificial endowments of the religious men and women who teach within their walls. Their sole object is to make education more accessible, more widespread.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we all agree that the hope of democracy is in education?

Mr. DORE. The more of it the better, and I believe the more the Federal pulmotor would be applied to the States the less the capacity of the States to breathe of themselves in an educational way would be increased.

The CHAIRMAN. And the more each State could know about what the other States are doing in advanced education would be beneficial? Mr. DORE. Undoubtedly.

The CHAIRMAN. And if that information could be brought to the point where they could all get it and take it or leave it, as they desired, that would be of advantage?

Mr. DORE. Without bringing it under Federal control; yes. We are in favor of the widest possible spread of knowledge regarding education, but not through a Federal agency that would lead to control of education.

Mr. FLETCHER. I believe everyone agrees with you on that.

Mr. DORE. I will add that this is the fifth or sixth public hearing that your committee has conducted for the purpose of hearing discussions regarding this important proposed change in the administration of education in our country. The progress that has been made has been altogether of a negative character viewed from the standpoint of the proponents of this legislation.

These proponents had, in the first place, to meet the opposition of that large and important body of voters who, in every political party, are crying out against Federal extravagance, which, with the death of the "Federal pork barrel," has tried to resurrect itself through the device of Federal aid to the States. They met that opposition by scaling down the initial appropriation carried in their bill.

These proponents, thus forced to abandon that part of their project which had won for it its chief support, now send before this committee, an authorized spokesman who last Wednesday morning, in answering a question of one of you gentlemen, admitted that many of the supporters of the bill still advocate "Federal aid"; was not willing to state that the organization for which he spoke had ceased to advocate "Federal aid," and could, with authority, name no single supporter of the bill other than himself, who had abandoned hope for "Federal aid." I do not hesitate to state before this committee my personal belief and conviction that this bill does not meet

with the approval of the taxpayers of this country. This is not alone my conviction. It is the conviction of the important body of taxpayers for whom I speak, as it is the conviction of other bodies of taxpayers, who are opposed to this legislation, and it must be evident from the hearings before this honored committee and the statements made by those who have an eye single to the preservation of the true genius of our institutions.

The second objection which the proponents of this bill have had to meet, with defeat for themselves, is the outcry which is heard from every corner of our country against the further usurpation by the Federal Government of those functions which by our Constitution are reserved to the States. An advocate of this legislation. speaking on last Wednesday to this committee stated that a Federal department of education is necessary, "if we are to be a unified Nation." There was a time not so long ago when citizens of our country delighted to jingle in their jeans the fine old silver dollars. On those silver dollars was inscribed, so that no citizen would forget, the motto "E pluribus unum," the very synthesis of the political philosophy upon which our national institutions stand, the principle that has given life to us as a great democratic Nation.

The Federal idea is at the bottom of our political system. It is the underpinning and the foundation upon which our national welfare has been erected. The founders of our Republic had no hesitancy on this point. George Washington was a great advocate of education. He saw no way in which the Federal Government could directly interest itself in schools. Thomas Jefferson was the champion of public education. He looked upon the public school and the State-supported university as the indispensable agencies of a democracy, and yet in his sixth message as President, he declared that the Federal surplus may not be voted for school purposes until the Federal Constitution has been amended. Much is made of the land-grant colleges. These institutions came into being as a result of enactments regulating the distribution of vast tracts of Federal land and were never intended to be the basis of a system of Federal aid to State schools. Are the advocates of this legislation losing faith in that "E pluribus unum" motto which the people of this country have always held sacred? I ask that question in all serious

ness.

I do not like to use harsh words, but there are snobs in our country who signal out an instance like the controversy which, two years ago, waged in a certain city of a Southern State over the teachings of evolution and triumphantly state that such a community is not fit to control the education of its own children.

"A Federal department must be created to assume the responsi bility which such people as these are manifestly unfit to assume." That statement is a confession that a Federal department would dominate and control public education. If that day comes, our country will have denied every principle that has given it life and character. Gentlemen, democracy grows by functioning. Error detected supplies the stepping stones by which progress advances. Let me ask you: Had the evolution law been a Federal enactment