suffer the pains of hell forever." For myself, I ́ believe in no scheme of salvation, which will prevent men from being rewarded according to their works.

Ing. Some Universalists hold, that the wicked go to hell, and suffer as much as they deserve. If so, they are neither forgiven, nor saved by grace. They work their passage, if I may so speak, through fire and brimstone, to the world of glory. They are not saved by works of righteousness, but by sufferings and fire. This giving people over to Satan, that he may discipline them for salvation, is a new doctrine. Mr. Winchester held, I am told, that the heavens and earth would be destroyed by a conflagration, and become like boiling lava, in which the wicked would be punished, for ages of ages, and then be restor- ed, and go to heaven.

Uni. He did, Sir; but I hardly need tell you that no Universalists of the present day, so far as I am informed, go with him fully, on these points. The most zealous brethren of our common faith, who maintain future punishment, teach nothing comparable with Mr. Winchester's notion of a hell of literal fire and brimstone.Still, that great and pious man did no more believe that punishment would save sinners, without the atonement, or "blood of Christ," as he expressed it, than you do. Punishment may be as purely parental, though inflicted in the future state, as in this, and as compatible with salvation by the grace of God.

We have just as good right to turn upon other denominations, and say they hold that people work their passage through afflictions, trials, and

chastisements, to the kingdom of heaven, as they have to say things similar of Universalists. St. Paul says, that light afflictions, which are for a moment, work a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; and that grievous chastisements yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness to those exercised thereby. But did he mean to ascribe the glory of salvation, to afflictions and chastisements, to the exclusion of Christ? St. John speaks of those who came out of "great tribulation," and yet "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” And in 1 Cor. iii, 13-15, we have an account of a fiery process, by which wicked works will be burnt up, wicked men suffer loss, and still "be saved so as by fire." "Our God is a consuming fire."

Yes, and in the 5th chapter, verse 4, 5, St. Paul gives command, that a certain wicked person should be delivered over to Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, and the salvation of the spirit. So this doctrine is not so new as you imagine. Of two others, the apostle says, "whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Tim. i, 20.) A very useful lesson. I suspect some professors of the present day, need discipline upon these points. No one can deny but that St. Paul might be accused of attributing salvation to sufferings and Satan, with as much propriety as Universalists are, of ascribing it to punishment, either here or hereafter; and yet, thus to accuse him, would, in me, be blasphemous. That the chastisements of God are designed to subdue the rebellious, and prepare them for the reception of grace and truth, Universalists fully believe.

But I know of no passage which describes the method of being saved from an endless hell.The apostles constantly preached salvation, but not from hell, in so many words. Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, "How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" implying that, with them, it was impossible. If the Gentiles, as well as Jews, were in danger of a hell of future wo, why did not the apostles proclaim the fact in direct terms? It is surprising that a matter of such vast importance, should be left in silence. As the apostles were accused of preaching lax and licentious doctrines, encouraging some to say, "let us sin, that grace may abound," why did they not turn upon their slanderers, and give them a discourse upon hell torments? Why not warn sinners of their exposure to that frightful place? As well might they preach salvation, without informing their hearers through whom they must be saved, as to hold it forth, without declaring from what they were to be delivered.

to me.

Inq. Well, Sir, this is a great stumbling-block I am unable to conceive why the apostles did not speak of the sinner's exposure to hell, openly and frequently; and with zeal, warn them to escape its fury. They all preached repentance; but for what object, if not to prevent sinners from going to hell?

Uni. The answer is given in the words of inspiration. Both Jesus and John urged repentance upon the ground, that "the kingdom of heaven was at hand;" not the regions of endless despair. St. Peter describes the joy-inspiring hopes of the gospel, as "showers of refreshing from the presence of the Lord." And St. Paul

tells you plainly, what produces genuine repentance, viz. "the goodness of God," instead of the fear of a hell, afar off. He said to some of a very different character from yourself, it is hoped, “Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness andforbearance and long-suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." (Rom. ii, 4-11.) Those people labored hard to establish a righteousness of their own, which would save them from the heathen hell; but they were self-sufficient, and despised the riches of God's goodness. But what course did Paul take with them? Why, he declared openly, that repentance must be produced by that very goodness which they blindly despised; and added, "Who will render to every man according to his deeds; for there is no respect of persons with God." Those who continued long in hardness of heart, would, of course, "treasure up wrath against the day of wrath;" while those who repented and reformed, would neither accumulate the fearful treasure, nor deserve its woes. specially saved would suffer as much as they deserved, and the specially damned, no more than their deserts. The punishment of each, and of all, would be sufficient to answer the benevolent purposes of the divine law. of the divine law. As Paul said, on another occasion, "Sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted already of many; so that contrariwise, ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest, perhaps, such a one should be swallowed up with over-much (2 Cor. ii, 6, 7.) In a word, not to dwell on hair-breadth distinctions, all Universalists hold that justice and mercy are intimate

sorrow."

The

friends, and at peace in the divine bosom, requiring the infliction of so much punishment, as is necessary to promote the interests of virtue and benovolence. And since "sorrows remembered sweeten present joy," godly sorrow, whenever produced, working repentance unto salvation, inay prove a blessing to sinners. "For, the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isa. xxxv, 10.)

Inq. But to come at the subject more directly, let me inquire, what you mean by salvation. I have conversed with several men of good talents on this point, but never got much light. Pray tell me what the scripture doctrine of salvation is, according to your system. If sinners are not saved from the punishment which they deserve, nor from an everlasting hell, I should be glad to know what they are saved from?

Uni. That is right, Sir; come to the main question at once. Universalists agree with Dr. Channing, or rather, he agrees with them, that "low ideas are attached by multitudes to the word, salvation. Ask multitudes, what is the chief evil from which Christ came to save them, and they will tell you, 'from hell, from penal fires, from future punishment.' Accordingly, they think, that salvation is something which another may achieve for them, very much as a neighbor may quench a conflagration which menaces their dwellings and lives. That which, in a faithful translation, would not once occur in the writings of Paul, and Peter, and John, which we meet only in four or five discourses of Jesus, and which