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the whole four years for some twenty-six colleges. I am unwilling to draw any conclusions from them until the figures for each institution shall have been approved by a member of its department of mechanical engineering.

PROFESSOR C. Russ RICHARDS: Dr. Woodward's remarks brought home to me a serious question which I have had up for some time-whether in the four years of the undergraduate course we are warranted in differentiating our work into the different branches of engineering that are now given. It seems to me in the four years of the undergraduate course there are certain basic subjects - basic to all branches of engineering—that the student should master. In our own institution we give certain specialties which to me seem of questionable value. We go into specialities, which, if a student has the proper basic perspective of the whole subject of engineering, he can bring up in his outside work. But it is almost impossible for the student to determine where he will land. He may expect to become an electrical engineer, where the opportunity may be much better to become a mechanical engineer. If a man in his four years' course is well grounded in the different basic subjects, he is apt to land on his feet wherever he lights. If he wishes to specialize, why not take an extra year and give his whole time to the work he may choose? Before he takes this specialized work he should have a year or two of post-graduate work in practical lines. Then he can go back to college with a high degree of profit. I am inclined to think if we put the six years' course into the calendar, no one will take it. It would be a good thing if a man had the time and money. But there are few men in our institutions who have the time and money. By the time they finish a six years' course they have lost some of the best years of their lives.

PROFESSOR Bass: We like to say that the engineering profession ranks with the medical profession and that of law. If there is any justification for the present practice of medical schools and law schools for making their work entirely post-graduate or for requiring at least two years of general work or academic work before students may enter law or medical schools, then there is some justification for the same requirement for engineering schools.

There are many classes of responsible positions that could be filled by men with an engineering education, but which are not so filled at present because the engineering graduate has not been led to see the opportunities during his college course. Nearly every engineering curriculum is crowded with technical subjects which are rightly therė, but to value the relative importance of these subjects and their proper relations to other activities of life is something which a broader education will help the student to do.

PROFESSOR BRACKETT: In our institution the mechanical, electrical and civil engineering courses are practically identical for two and a half years. At the middle of the junior year the civil engineers differentiate slightly from the mechanical and electrical engineers. The mechanical and electrical courses are identical for three years. We are satisfied with the system, and if we make further changes the courses

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will probably become nearer alike than they now are.

PROFESSOR WEBB: Has any one any statistics as to what these men do after they graduate? Suppose a man is graduated in a definite engineering course, are there statistics to show whether he remains throughout his active life in that branch of the profession in which he graduated, or whether he changes to another branch or leaves the profession entirely?

DEAN KENT: I have some statistics on that. Every civil engineer graduating from our college in the last four years has remained a civil engineer. We give them all the same course in the freshman year. All of our civil engineering graduates get their positions before they leave college through the state civil service board, and they remain as civil engineers.

THE CHAIR: Your statistics are not good engineering. It takes twenty-five years to tell what engineering graduates are going to do.

DEAN COOLEY: We have forty years' data on that subject.

PROFESSOR CONSTANT: The discussion has drifted off along lines somewhat foreign to the paper which I presented. The paper was prepared at the request of the Secretary to answer a number of inquiries as to what is meant by the six-day system at Minnesota. I was not sure but that I should find that many other colleges have likewise abolished the time-honored weekly holiday and that my paper would touch upon nothing new. I am still in doubt upon this point and I regret that the discussion did not bring out more fully the general practice throughout the country. No one has stated that his college is trying to do work in less than five and a half days, nor that it is utilizing the whole six days. With us, as I brought out in the paper, the expansion into the sixth day was inevitable and the system now seems the only logical one to use.

PROFESSOR FISH: In answer to Professor Magruder's question, I was unable to get these data checked by the authorities of the colleges because of the fact that I did not undertake the preparation of this paper until too late for correspondence. I shall be glad to be informed of anything that is incorrect. I will later take up the subject with the various colleges for the purpose of checking these figures.

I think the answer to Professor Shuster's question is to be found in the paper; nearly all of the catalogs were explicit as to the number of hours in a laboratory period; of course time put in outside of the laboratory period is not included in the figures.

With reference to Professor Raymond's remarks, I think it will be generally agreed that these figures do not tell the whole story; but I think that they may be taken in general as fairly comparative.



BY GEORGE R. CHATBURN, Professor of Applied Mechanics and Machine Design, University

of Nebraska.

For a number of years the writer has been trying to persuade himself that the technical engineering courses have in them the cultural value necessary and sufficient for any engineer. But up to the present time he has been unable to do so. He wishes to concede at the beginning that it is neither possible nor desirable for all engineers to be educated exactly alike. The individuality of the student should be a determining factor. Therefore it may be well eventually to generalize the technical courses and make part of the work elective Trade schools and short courses might properly be encouraged for the benefit of those who have not the time, means, or inclination, to take a full-rounded technical course or the cultural technical course which will be outlined below.

Dr. Kent, in a recent lecture at the University of Nebraska, gave a diagram showing graphically the different schools through which, or by which, men were prepared for the various professions and trades. This diagram shows that some engineers pass through the grammar school, high school, liberal arts college, and professional college. Others go directly, and no doubt these are in the majority, from the high school to the professional college, and still others from the high school immediately to practical engineering,

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