certainly do need help, especially school districts where they have a great number of children and very few factories upon which to raise the school taxes.

Mr. HUSHING. There is quite a bit to your argument, Mr. Schafer. Mr. PATTERSON. One other question in regard to what the chairman and my colleague have brought out: Do you think there is any kind of supervision, in connection with the Federal money that is spent now in this vocational education, that interferes in the least with anybody's rights or privileges?

Mr. HUSHING. I do not think there is.

Mr. PATTERSON. None whatever, is it?
Mr. HUSHING. No.

Mr. SCHAFER. If you will recollect, this committee held hearings on the vocational rehabilitation bill and representatives of the American Federation of Labor, representatives of industry and educators appeared in favor of that bill, carrying an appropriation amounting to well over a million dollars and increasing each year. Due to the request of the Budget Bureau, the bill as reported out had the appropriations greatly reduced. Do you believe there is any justification whatever, in reporting out this bill and enacting it into law, to reduce the appropriations carried in the bill one penny? Mr. HUSHING. I do not see why they should be.

Mr. PATTERSON. Will you amplify that "we" you spoke of a while ago? You say "We are inclined."

Mr. HUSHING. I mean the American Federation of Labor.

Mr. PATTERSON. You spoke for the National Federation of Labor?

Mr. HUSHING. The American Federation of Labor?

Mr. PATTERSON. Have they taken any vote on that?

Mr. HUSHING. Not definitely; no.

Mr. SCHAFER. It would be my suggestion that the American Federation of Labor place a communication in the hands of each Member of Congress indicating you are in favor of the bill with the appropriation as carried in this bill-a million dollars a year for three years; because the Members of Congress, a great majority of them, at least, give a great deal of consideration to the views of the American Federation of Labor. I know I do. If the American Federation of Labor would have placed in the hands of every Member of Congress a letter protesting against the reduction of the vocational rehabilitation appropriation, I believe we would have had more votes in the House of Representatives in favor of my motion to recommit with instructions to report back with the appropriation authorization increased to the amounts as contained in the bill upon which the committee held hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. HUSHING. Thank you.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask the committee to hear at this time Mr. Charles W. Sylvester, director of division of vocational education for the city of Baltimore, and at the close of Mr. Sylvester's remarks I am going to ask him to present a gentleman who is with him for just a short statement.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES W. SYLVESTER, DIRECTOR DIVISION OF VOCATIONAL EDUCATION, BALTIMORE, MD.; TREASURER AMERICAN VOCATIONAL ASSOCIATION

Mr. SYLVESTER. Gentlemen, I am here to present some information relative to that part of this proposed bill which refers to commercial education, and I am not going to read a document of any kind; I am going to refer to it and leave this material for the record. There are just a few points I would like to make in connection with it. Federal aid to enable State boards for vocational education to organize and conduct classes for employed commercial workers is needed throughout the United States. That seems to be the concensus of opinion of all persons engaged in this particular field. It may be interesting to know that our program of commercial education to-day in the United States is largely of a stenographic and bookkeeping type. We need, as I see it, standards set up and aid such as has been provided in connection with industrial and trade education, which has been, of course, so well done, which needs to be expanded as has been pointed out here

Mr. DOUGLASS. Do not you believe there is more technique in these mechanical fields than there is in bookkeeping and stenography? Mr. SYLVESTER. Of course I am in charge of industrial and trade education, as I am in charge of commercial education, and have recognized there is a different type of technique required. I would say for some trades that would not be true; for others it would be.

Mr. DOUGLASS. How long does it take a stenographer to learn to be a stenographer; a student studying stenography, how long does it take that person to learn stenography?

Mr. SYLVESTER. May I answer that just after I have gone a little further on this?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Certainly.

Mr. SYLVESTER. The ultimate purpose of the proposed legislation is to have classes in every community for the purpose of teaching retail merchants, salesmen, and other store and office workers the most economical and effective practices in merchandizing, store management, selling, and record keeping known and used in this country. So many changes in buying, selling, store management, an related business practices have been made in the past 20 years, the owners and managers of small retail stores have not been able to become acquainted with many of the new methods necessary for rendering the most economical service to their customers; so many new kinds of new merchandise have come upon the market that a few retail salesmen have been able to learn about the goods they sell satisfactorily to guide customers in selecting the goods which best fills their needs.

Mr. SCHAFER. And if they did receive vocational education, they would be better able to compete with the chain stores that are so bitterly denounced.

Mr. DOUGLASS. The chain stores may be able to pick up these people you are educating.

Mr. SYLVESTER. I will answer that if you will just bear with me a little further. The classes to be established under the provisions of this bill for merchants, salesmen and other store and office employees, will show these men how to use the best practices in merchandizing

and selling so far developed by the leaders in selling and sales management in the country. The appeal for Federal aid for establishing classes for retailers is based upon the imperative national need for decreasing costs and wastes in the distribution of the products of farm and factory to the consumers; for only through more efficient and more economical service in distribution can the wants of the millions of customers in this country be more nearly satisfied from the surplus of agricultural and manufactured goods now available.

Mr. KVALE. In a case of that kind, would you cooperate with the Department of Commerce, for instance, that has conducted studies into particular problems that affect retail grocers?

Mr. SYLVESTER. I see not reason why cooperation could not be carried on with every organization. I am going to point out a few ways in which that can be done.

Mr. KVALE. Then I will try not to interrupt again.

Mr. SYLVESTER. The establishment throughout the country of classes for retailers, salesmen, and others employed in different lines of business, will have the aid and cooperation of national and State commercial trade associations. Such a union of educational resources and business knowledge should be the most effective way in which to raise the standard of effective practices within a trade and provide Vocational competency for workers in a given line of business.

During the past five years, through the cooperation of the Federal Board for Vocational Education and three of the national trade associations, classes for retail grocers, for laundry salesmen, and for retail meat dealers have been successfully organized and conducted in many parts of the country, that is, courses for those particular groups. Between 1927 and 1930, about 100 classes for retail grocers were organized and successfully conducted through an introductory course for retail grocers, which the National Association for Retail Grocers had prepared with the help of the Federal Board for Vocational Education. In addition to the thousand or more grocers enrolled in these classes, many hundreds were reached through correspondence courses carried on by their association. However, due to a lack of funds on the part of the association, they go on and point out they were unable to carry out the program as it should be carried. They need the professional assistance of an organization such as the Federal Board can give.

The National Association of Retail Meat Dealers has, in cooperation with the Federal Board for Vocational Education, organized within the past three years about 20 classes for retail meat dealers to test out certain units of instuctional material which had been developed for them by the Federal Board. That same thing is true with respect to the Laundry Owners National Association. With the guidance and help of the Federal Board for Vocational Education, they prepared a course for laundry salesman which the officials of the association believe has been beneficially used by at least 15,000 men. Mr. DOUGLASS. What has a laundry salesman got to do?

Mr. SYLVESTER. That is just one of the ways which I am trying to point out that it will be of great service to similar businesses throughout the country.

Mr. DOUGLASS. As an example, what is a laundry salesman's work? Mr. SYLVESTER. I do not know that I can go into the laundry salesmen's work, except to say, in order for that business to be

profitable, it is necessary, of course, that they carry it on in a most economic and efficient way.

Mr. DOUGLASS. You do not need a Government inspector to go around with the laundry salesman to teach him his business, do you? Mr. SYLVESTER. Those men they must use, as other businesses in the commercial field have not had the advantage of salesmanship training, and that is one of the great needs.

Mr. DOUGLASS. What has a laundryman to sell?

Mr. SCHAFER. Service.

Mr. SYLVESTER. He is selling service. The success of all these classes has proved the value to retailers and salesmen of classes especially planned to meet their needs, using lesson material based upon the experience of the best men in the business. The fact that only a very small number of men have been benefited by these classes shows that only the National and State Governments are able to provide the facilities necessary for developing the classes needed by small retailers and their salesmen. While there are in this country more than 2,000 national, interstate, and State trade associations, as yet only a very few, not more than 10, have seen the important service which they could render their members and the country through directing and maintaining organized educational programs based upon local classes for their members and the employees of their members, as well as for all in the business field which the association attempts to cover. Indeed, one of the most important outcomes of the legislation now proposed would probably be to show more trade associations the value of participating with the public schools in organizing direct instructional classes for their members.

The provisions of the bill, carrying with it, of course, these appropriations, makes it possible for the United States to have State supervisors of vocational commercial education. At the present time there are only three States that have such service and, right in connection with it, it might be pointed out that not more than 20 cities in the United States have these professional men or staffs to assist in the commercial problems. To promote, usually in cooperation with national, State, or local commercial trade associations, the formation of classes and conference groups for store owners, managers, operators, buyers, salesmen, clerks, delivery men, and, in general, every group of commercial worker can be aided by evening or part-time classes. I want to say we are thinking of this group as being the most benefited through the part-time and evening classes. That matter, of course, has been referred to here by various speakers.

To supervise, in cooperation with local city supervisors of commercial education and other public-school officials, such classes and conference groups for commercial workers as may be organized in the different cities in the State.

To employ experienced men to conduct the conferences necessary for obtaining the instructional material and recommended trade practices needed for use in classes for commercial workers, especially those for small-store owners, managers, and other groups of business men and commercial workers; and to employ men who can train conference leaders and teachers in those fields as they have been trained in the trade and industrial fields; to give financial assistance to public school systems for providing in each city, say of 25,000 116859-30- -11

population or over, a supervisor for vocational commercial education who can be responsible for these same activities within the State; to give financial assistance to public-school authorities, even in the smallest communities able to maintain a high school, in employing teachers competent to conduct part-time and evening classes for workers employed in small stores and offices.

This bill provides an administration fund which will enable the Federal Board for Vocational Education to properly cooperate with the State boards for vocational education through the services of special regional agents who can assist the State boards for vocational education and the State and local superivisors of vocational education in promoting and directing the State and local program for employed commercial workers; and special research agents who, through conferences, can aid in preparing the lesson materials and the teaching procedures needed in the local classes and conference groups for employed commercial workers; publish bulletins which will be needed in promoting and improving the programs carried on with the State for the employed commercial worker, and cooperation with national commercial trade associations in developing educational programs for the members and employees of these organizations and for other workers interested in or employed in the occupations represented by the national organizations.

Now coming to the evening school courses for adult workers, I have indicated that as being a type of work which needs to be sponsored and more fully developed. You may be interested to know that courses at the present time are very much of the high-school type; they are not strictly vocational, and provide only training, perhaps, in bookkeeping and stenography.

Mr. PATTERSON. Do you think the Government could well afford to help that?

Mr. SYLVESTER. That group?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. SYLVESTER. They can. In addition to the many types of work already referred to, there is a great need for many specialized evening school commercial courses for adult workers, such as real-estate salesmanship, automobile salesmanship, specialty salesmanship, and similar fields of work.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Would you want us to go into that?

Mr. SYLVESTER. These are phases of commercial education which need, it seems to me, as much support as we find in the trade and commercial occupations. This is outside, I might say, of the present program of commercial education.

Mr. KVALE. I was just going to say you have a concept of the problem that is just a little at variance with the other witnesses who have testified before the committee.

Mr. SYLVESTER. I do not intend to be; I am interested in that field, having made a study of it, and am trying to point out that in the field of commercial occupations the same need exists, or a similar need, as exists in the trade and industrial occupations.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Do not you think these commercial organizations, as a whole, are pretty well able to take care of themselves and their interest in business?

Mr. SYLVESTER. That has not been demonstrated up to the present time. They are willing to cooperate and render assistance, but they