would expect to go to school, that would be much more than one in six that are going to school. Now we find in these courses that they need help from our company in the way of equipment and we cooperate with them and give them the equipment. If they need instructors in certain lines and we have competent men, we look around and help find the men, and probably a dozen or more of our employees are instructors in courses of one kind and another that the employees. attend.

I am speaking mainly from the standpoint of our company in favor of this bill, because we sincerely believe in vocational education. We believe it is better for our company to cooperate with these vocational courses than to set them up ourselves, and we believe it is better for the employee to go there and associate with the students that come from other companies, than it would be to have our own organized classes. We think it is better on both sides.

Now I would like to say just a word or two with reference to the Baltimore Association of Commerce and its interest in this question. I happen to be chairman of the committee on industrial education and we are cooperating with the public school system in these vocational classes in printing, welding, plumbing, the automotive trade, electrical machine trades, and so on, and do it by working with the school. authorities and we have a committee which meets regularly and advises the school authorities as to the curriculum and the layout of the job, and all things involved-whether we are over-training for different trades or not and I think this is a problem that will be expanded very greatly if the facilities are available to do it. It is going well now and I think promises a most successful program.

Now I would like to show just one way we have gotten help from the Federal board. We wanted to train our foremen and so we called upon the Federal board to send us a man who would train some foremen. We had Mr. Cushman come over from the Federal board and he spent his time there for something over a month. I do not mean continuously throughout the month, but he was there at certain appointed times throughout the month, for ten or twelve days, and when we got through we printed that report, not only for the benefit of our own foremen, but for the benefit of foremen any where, and when Mr. Cushman got out to Hawaii, sometime after that, we had a request for some fifty copies that might be distributed out there at some sugar plantation where the same type of work was going on. Besides that, we get from the Federal board literature on various phases of education, which we find very helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you a question right there, because you are a practical business man. You may have been in the room when I asked this question before. There has been set up a committee of educators, land grant college people and others, known as the Wilbur committee, which is giving careful study, constant study, to the question as to the relationship of the Federal Government to these fields of education and to determine and recommend whether or not the policy shall be continued-whether the policy of Federal aid shall be continued. From your observation of this work, do you think it would be wise now to wipe the slate clean of all this Federal aid of vocational education and let the States handle it entirely by themselves? Do you think that would be wise?

Mr. LUCE. I think it would be very unwise.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that from a business standpoint?

Mr. LUCE. I doubt very much if it would have been started in Maryland. We are very proud in Maryland of what has been accomplished, but we realize how undeveloped it all is even at the present time, and I am very sure it was only started because of the Federal aid.

Mr. SCHAFER. Do the colored citizens of your city have equal opportunities to attend vocational schools?

Mr. LUCE. They have a vocational school at night.

Mr. SCHAFER. You have separate classes?

Mr. LUCE. We have separate classes.

Mr. SCHAFER. Does the colored school have the same facilities, as many facilities, as the school for training the white folks?

Mr. LUCE. No; it is not as extensive; it is not so good a school. It needs improving and enlarging in many ways, but it is a pretty good school, nevertheless, in view of the class they have.

Mr. SCHAFER. When we are hearing so much about equality in education and giving those employed people an opportunity to have an education, in order to bring their educational facilities somewhere near an equality with those who are more fortunate, why is there a discrimination made in some of those Southern States not having the same facilities available for training colored people as well as white? Mr. LUCE. I do not think there is any discrimination in Maryland, so far as that is concerned. I want to say they have the Douglas High School there, which is one of the best high schools in the city, for colored, and the night school for colored men is on the same lot with this Douglas High School; but that building itself is not as good as the school for day students. But there are plans in the making to give them splendid quarters. I do not think there is any discrimina

tion.

The CHAIRMAN. It is just merely due to a delay in the program of building?

Mr. LUCE. Just a delay in the program.

Mr. SCHAFER. If the colored people can work side by side with the white people in industry, why can not they study side by side under a vocational training system?

Mr. LUCE. We have in this training system of ours several colored people going to night school; I mean employees in the Gas-Electric Co. I would like to say one thing further in reference to the correspondence courses. We probably have 50 of those 800 or more employees that are taking correspondence courses. Now they take those mainly because they are taking them in subjects that are not offered in the schools. If the subjects were offered, we would not think of turning them into the correspondence field. I will say for seven years I lived in Massachusetts

Mr. DOUGLASS. Then you spent seven happy years.

Mr. LUCE. And I want to say while Senator Walsh was making an investigation, he went to Scranton, you remember— Mr. DOUGLASS. I do.

Mr. LUCE. And in looking over the cards there he found the card of his chauffeur taking a correspondence course, and he wondered why it was that boys and young people in Massachusetts, that had had their schooling abridged in their early years, were obliged to pay such prices for education after they got to work. He knew pretty well

what his chauffeur received in wages, and he fostered this Massachusetts extension and, as a result, the boys and girls of Massachusetts were able to get their education at a nominal cost, a very low cost. Mr. DOUGLASS. Of course Massachusetts is one of the pioneers in this work.

Mr. LUCE. It certainly is.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am not finding fault with this work, you know; I am just foreseeing the objections that are going to be made to it on the floor, and I want you to give some answers to those objections, if you can, and I am trying to limit this work, as Mr. Kvale suggests, to the real necessities. That is my point. I think you will be better off if you keep the fads out.

Mr. LUCE. There would not be any question about the industries of Baltimore supporting this bill, so far as its further aid to vocational education is concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. They feel the time has not yet come for the Federal Government to let go; you feel that is the sentiment?

Mr. LUCE. I am very sure it is.

Mr. SCHAFER. Do they believe the bill, when reported out, should carry the appropriation now embodied in the bill and that there should not be a reduction such as there was in the vocational rehabilitation bill?

Mr. LUCE. I think, if anything, it should be larger.

The CHAIRMAN. They would not object to an increase, would they? Mr. LUCE. No.

Mr. MILLER. That question has been raised repeatedly as to the amount of money-whether we would be willing for it to be reduced. I would just say this, that the American Vocational Association, in the inquiries in preparation for the bill, felt the amount asked for should be just what is needed to carry forward the program.

Mr. KVALE. As a minimum.

Mr. MILLER. As the very minimum.

Mr. KVALE. I want that stressed.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, that is precisely what I asked you people to do, was it not?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. In other words, sometimes bills are presented for double the minimum people feel they need, with the idea of compromise, and we come as honestly as we know how to come asking for the minimum we feel is necessary to carry forward the program.

Now Mr. Raymond W. Heim, State director of vocational education of Delaware was here yesterday, ready to testify, and he was here until just a few minutes ago, and he has asked that this statement be put into the record from him, and to say he had these gentlemen with him whose names I have here representing employers and employees, all of whom were here yesterday but could not come back to-day.

The CHAIRMAN. Would some of them like to file a statement? Mr. MILLER. Some of them will, but they are very anxious that their names appear here as having appeared in favor of the bill. These gentlemen are:

2

John Saylor, Secretary Central Labor Union, Editor of Labor Herald.

M. Channing Wagner, assistant superintendent of schools, Wilmington, Del.

W. E. White, principal of Wilmington Trade School and president of Delaware Vocational Association.

A. B. Anderson, State supervisor of trade and industrial education.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN SAYLOR, SECRETARY CENTRAL LABOR UNION, WILMINGTON, DEL.

Hon. DANIEL A. REED,

Chairman, House Committee on Education,

CENTRAL LABOR UNION, Wilmington, Del., May 7, 1930.

Washington, D. C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN REED: The writer was present at the hearing this morning before the House Committee on Education and was prepared to testify on behalf of the Wilmington (Del.) Central Labor Union, regarding its indorsement at a regular stated meeting, held last evening, May 6, of the Capper-Reed Vocational education bill, H. R. 10821 and S. 3969.

We, as trades unionists, realize that we must be ever alert to our responsibilities, and realizing, too, that we are living in a fastly changing industrial world, it behooves us all to support the vocational education program which has as one of its objects the making of better apprentices and consequently better mechanics trained in all the whys and wherefores of their particular trades.

In this day of the mechanization of industry support should be given by the National Congress to the needs of the workers, who after all contribute so much to the general prosperity of the nation. It is our feeling that the Capper-Reed vocational education bill is entitled to the favorable consideration and support of all Senators and Congressmen who give their painstaking attention to the industrial situation, as it exists to-day.

With sincere thanks for your consideration of this official communication, I have the honor to be, at the direction of the Central Labor Union,

Yours most respectfully,

[SEAL.]

JOHN C. SAYLOR, Secretary.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND W. HEIM, DOVER, DEL., STATE DIRECTOR OF VOCATIONAL EDUCATION

Mr. HEIM. Our present vocational program seems to be well intrenched in so far as continuing the present work is concerned, and it is primarily for the purpose of further promoting and developing vocational education that we need more Federal aid. Past experience indicates that our local communities are slow in promoting and developing vocational education, but once the program is established and its value proved it will not be discontinued. Certainly the need for vocational education has been adequately demonstrated in Delaware. The development which has taken place in the past 10 years would have required many decades without our Federal aid. We have now reached the point where further expansion seems unwarrantedly slow, and urgent demands for additional vocational instruction are going unheeded.

Administratively it is much easier to establish general courses for the training of teachers and general academic classes for those wishing part-time and evening instruction, than to organize separate vocational classes that will meet the specific needs of certain groups. Where no restrictions are placed upon this instruction through a broad vocational program, as that set up by State and Federal requirements, inadequate instruction has been the result because it did not meet the needs of these specific groups.

We have recently witnessed several changes in our industries which have thrown large numbers out of employment, such as the conversion of cigar manufacture from hand to machine operation and the closing of large machine shops. Some of these adjustments have been made through our part-time and evening schools, but much more could have been done to relieve the situation through retraining in shortunit vocational courses had funds been available for research, promotion, and the establishment of a number of additional courses.

Delaware's program in retail selling, which has the indorsement of a large group of business men, has been held up for three years because of a lack of funds for the development of what is considered "something new." No instruction has yet been offered for commercial workers in our small towns and cities because our State and Federal aid is insufficient to expand the program to these communities. There is a distinct need for day and evening commercial courses of a vocational character in Wilmington and with additional Federal aid such courses could be immediately established, and standards would be set up to insure occupationally experienced teachers for these subjects. Commercial courses in the high schools, intended to train specifically for vocational competency, would be put on a vocational basis.

Delaware is now relying upon the direct assistance from the Federal Board staff for the development of foremanship service. Additional Federal funds would permit the State to give more attention to this very important phase of vocational education. There is also much to be done in the field of research, service to industrial plants in the development of training programs, and service to employed wage earners, all of which could be brought about or improvements made through the benefits derived from the Capper-Reed vocational bill.

Mr. MILLER. At this time I will ask the committee to hear Mr. H. G. Noyes, coordinator for adult education in trade and industry for the State of Wisconsin, who will make a short statement and then file some documentary evidence.

STATEMENT OF H. G. NOYES, COORDINATOR FOR ADULT EDUCATION IN TRADE AND INDUSTRY, STATE OF WISCONSIN

Mr. NOYES. I won't take but just a minute, because I appreciate the fact that you folks have given perhaps an extended length of time. I would like to say just two or three words in order that you may have some idea of the background of experience I have had when I make the few statements which I wish to make.

I would like to say I have been affiliated with the pulp and paper industry for quite a while, until I came to the State of Wisconsin, where I took charge of the development work and trade extension. work, first starting in pulp and paper trades and industries. I served for some time as one of those in charge of the work of the Oxford Paper Co., in Rumford, Me., so I feel I have a fairly comprehensive view of the outlook on this whole problem from the standpoint of industry.

I would like to show you how we conceive the problem in the trade industrial field. There seem to be three levels which must be reached if the maximum job is to be done which will assist employees and employers to get the most out of the vocational program which is

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