Miss FISH. Is not that rather an academic discussion? If you have a family of 5 or 6 or 7 and are earning anywhere from twelve hundred to thirteen hundred or fourteen hundred dollars, your boys and girls are going out to work when they are 16 and 17 years of age, almost without exception, and I doubt very much whether it does any good to say what would happen if those things are done.

Mr. SCHAFER. You take this situation: About two years ago, you could pick up a paper in Milwaukee, for instance, and find several hundred ads for girls to do housework. They offered to pay as high as $15 to $20 a week, room and board, to get girls. Many of the girls would rather go out and take a man's job in industry and get $12 a week and pay for their own board and room. I know that was the situation a few years ago.

Miss FISH. It might be remedied by changing the conditions under which housework is done.

Mr. SCHAFER. Could not a great many girls make more money doing work in the home, if they are trained in that vocation? This training would also be of great benefit in the future when they establish their own home.

Miss FISH. You can not train people unless they want the training; you can not get the girls to take the training for housework with the intention of going into homes. You can not get American girls to do that; I have tried it again and again and again. It is an utter impossibility.

The CHAIRMAN. It is rather difficult to get the second generation of foreigners to go.

Miss FISH. Yes. It is just one of those things that is simply impossible; you can not do it, and what is the use of talking about it.

Mr. PATTERSON. This is true, I suppose, that in the farm communities they take vocational home economics which is valuable help in the home, and in farm communities the people do that because they are not diverted and probably there is not the prevalence of opportunities of taking employment there.

Miss FISH. Yes; but they take it not with the idea of employment, however.

Mr. PATTERSON. But the point brought out by Mr. Schafer is a very important point to consider.

Miss FISH. It is considerably important.

Mr. PATTERSON. But I do not think you can answer for that. Mr. SCHAFER. In these vocational training schools, when the pupils come in to talk over the situation and the course which they are going to take, the vocational educational instructors, in a good many cases, could no doubt convert many of the girls to home economics and household vocational training, and thereby benefit themselves immediately when they go out to work and, in the future, when they have their own families; because a girl is better off when she is trained and can get $20 a week, room, and board in home than to go down to the 5 and 10 cent store and stand up over the counter for 8 or 10 hours a day, and get $10 to $12 a week and then have to pay for her board and room.

Miss FISH. In conclusion, I think there is very little to say except possibly to answer the questions that have been put to the others.

We need the encouragement of the Federal Board. There is a change in our economic system; women are going out to work more and more. We can fight it and oppose it; but, nevertheless, there are 12 per cent of the girls that marry who go into work, and we have to face it, because we can not change that condition.

The CHAIRMAN. You feel the time has not yet arrived when the Federal Government should cease to aid work along this line?

Miss FISH. The fight is just beginning. We need much more ammunition.

Mr. KVALE. Just so this appears in the record, in connection with what you said earlier; I am from Minnesota, too, and am enjoying the statement you are making, and I want this to be clear in the record: The need that your school feels to exist is not one that you determine. When the girls come to you, they demand certain training, and the fact that women are branching out into industry is a fault essentially of the public-school system and of other factors quite beyond your control, and should not be laid at your door.

Miss FISH. We are simply filling the demand. The fault is the fault of the economic situation of the world. They need the money in the homes and they go out and get it.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, may I just say this: Mr. K. G. Smith, State supervisor of trade and industrial education for the State of Michigan, is in the city, was here yesterday, and is here to-day, but has not had an opportunity to testify. He just wants his name to go in the record as having been present and willing to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. Will he file a statement?

Mr. MILLER. He will file a statement, and there will be statements from Michigan.

STATEMENT OF K. G. SMITH, STATE SUPERVISOR OF TRADE AND INDUSTRIAL EDUCATION, LANSING, MICH.

Mr. SMITH. Our primary purpose in desiring additional money is one of equalization of opportunity. Our work is expanding in cities where established, and new courses are needed which can not be carried on without some financial aid. We have done little or no promotion.

The age of entrance into industry is rising in this State. At the present time no child under 15 years of age may be employed in any commercial or industrial employment during school hours. Very few are employed under the age of 16 years, and employment is sharply restricted under the age of 18 years. We have more and older children in our schools. This is shown by the fact that our school enrollment in grades 9, 10, 11, 12 increased 48 per cent from 1921 to 1928. The increase in enrollment in grades 6, 7, and 8 during the same period was 29 per cent. These young persons who now remain in school demand an education fitted to their needs. We shall soon reach a stage where there will be no full-time industrial employment for persons under 16 and only a limited amount for persons under 18. The years from 16 to 18 will be the years for definite industrial training on a full-time or part-time apprenticeship basis. We must prepare to meet this condition. Our largest vocational school, located in Grand Rapids, reported an increase in enrollment of 185 at the beginning of the second semester of this year. They were

planning on an increase of 75. This school is now refusing enrollments. A like condition on a smaller scale exists in Port Huron and Three Rivers. Both schools are full to capacity.

We have done very little in foremanship and nothing in retail selling because of lack of necessary funds. Our program of vocational industrial education for women is hampered for the same

reason.

Our program can not continue to develop and expand if no more funds are available. We should have to curtail our activities and refuse reimbursement for any additional classes. We have already refused reimbursement for new activities. Superintendents and others recognize the necessity for this work, but the constant increase in public elementary and high schools makes such demands upon taxpayers that they can not finance any special classes without outside help.

If we had no Federal funds for teacher training we would have no vocational teacher-training program worthy of the name. This, in our State, is looked upon as a special piece of work to be paid for out of special funds. We could have no special classes for training occupationally competent persons as teachers without these special funds. This would soon eliminate from our secondary schools all real and effective industrial education. The result would be an increase in the number of boys and girls dropping out of school and drifting about. This should not be allowed to happen for, as Dr. William J. Cooper, United States commissioner of education has said:

All children of school age are entitled to profit from some school services and the school must be expanded to include a consideration of their needs.

(Proceedings of Twenty-fifth Anniversary Conference of National Child Labor Committee, p. 12.)

A part-time and evening school program is still more difficult to maintain without special aid, for it is organized for the benefit of those who have left full-time school. The demands of these persons are definite. They have definite needs and as taxpayers have a right to ask that a system of public education be organized to meet their demands. In our State, due to the limited opportunities for vocational education offered in our public part-time and evening schools, private trade schools have flourished. One hundred and ten of these schools are now operating. These figures include no private business colleges. Their tuition rates are high. As a very conservative estimate $440,000 was paid in tuition to these schools by persons, some of whom, at least, had a right to training at public

expense.

UNEMPLOYMENT

Michigan is a State and Detroit, particularly, a city in which there seems to be always a surplus of adult labor. I have this past winter talked with at least 200 men in the employment agencies of Detroit. Not over 20 per cent had any training for a definite trade. Private trade schools near by advertised in large letters "Learn a trade and get a job." A start at a trade helps a man when times are good and good training is doubly important for the man who wants a job in a dull season.

Opportunity for one to learn a new trade is often necessary for men displaced by machinery or even temporarily laid off. A teacher in one of our large trade schools says:

I am becoming more convinced that our school is in a position to help people who are beyond school age. Mr. was employed as a finisher at the

Body Co. He had always wanted to be a machinist, but, like a good many young men, had never had the opportunity. He was laid off a short time ago and took advantage of that period of idleness to come to school. He took shop work 8 hours a day for 6 weeks. By that time he was sure he enjoyed the work and could make good at it. We are now trying to place him and we know that he will make good.

Our automobile industry in an industry composed of special occupations and operations. Men frequently learn one operation or occupation and then desire to advance themselves or make more sure of employment by learning another. The specialist in one operation or occupation is at the mercy of changing industrial conditions and methods. He seeks more than one string for his bow or, in automobile parlance, he needs to carry at least one spare tire.

As an illustration of changing conditions we have now in the city of Detroit a class of 40 plumbers taking pipe welding. Heretofore welding has not been a part of the plumbing trade. It has recently become an important part and a plumber to retain his status and to secure employment at his trade must be able to do welding.

It is becoming more and more difficult for young persons without preliminary training to secure employment. In cities where there is no opportunity or limited opportunity for vocational training reports show as high as 50 per cent of young persons 15 to 17 years of age unemployed. In one of our cities where special attention is paid to preliminary training and placement, 95 per cent of this group were placed.

It is the general opinion of workers. in correctional and penal institutions that lack of vocational training and consequent unemployment is one of the chief causes of crime. (See statement of Warden Jackson of Michigan State Prison.)

Additional funds are needed chiefly to support part-time and part-time cooperative classes and evening classes. The city of Detroit has recently opened the Wilbur Wright Cooperative High School. One hundred and thirty-five boys are actually employed and attending school half time in this institution. There is a waiting list. Lack of Federal funds will seriously hamper the growth of this school and limit the service it can render. Grand Rapids desires to organize a similar cooperative course in the vocational and technical high school. Little or no aid can be given unless additional funds as provided for are granted.

Our evening school work has increased approximately 20 per cent year. Our services in this field will have to be curtailed unless we have additional funds.

this

Our work in foremanship is limited to classes held in one city only, Grand Rapids. It has been very successful there for the past three years. Similar work ought to be done in other cities.

Michigan is at the crossroads. We are going forward or remain at a standstill or what is worse, we may go backward. Our present facilities for industrial education are inadequate to meet the demands. We must either furnish our boys and girls an effective type

of education or let them run loose upon the streets and become drifters and a burden on our communities.

Semiskilled adults seek training to supplement their present occupation and to increase their earning power. Specialists out of employment because of changes in industrial processes seek training for new lines of work. These men must secure their training either under a system of public education or in the more expensive and less thorough private trade schools.

K. G. SMITH,

MICHIGAN STATE PRISON, Jackson, Mich., April 15, 1930.

State Supervisor of Industrial Education,
Department of Public Instruction, Lansing, Mich.

DEAR SIR Referring to your communication of April 12th, I am sending you a copy of our March statistical report and call your attention to page 14. This classifies over 50 per cent of the inmates who have trades and you can discount this to about 40 per cent, as we find that quite a number claim a trade, whereby they only have slight knowledge and experience; however, they are ready to state they are thoroughly versed in the occupations.

Yours very truly,

HARRY H. JACKSON,

Warden Michigan State Prison.

EXAMPLES OF TANGIBLE RESULTS FROM INDUSTRIAL EDUCATION

The ultimate result of industrial education for any individual should be satisfactory placement. It is growing more and more difficult for young persons without preliminary training to secure employment. Training and intelligent placement make for industrial efficiency and good citizenship.

REPORT FROM VOCATIONAL AND TECHNICAL HIGH SCHOOL, GRAND RAPIDS, MICH. 1. A number of boys are working in Berkey and Gay plant No. 2. All are making good. A former part timer is assistant foreman. This boy is now attending evening school and studying furniture designing. (BENJAMIN DYKHUIZEN, instructor in furniture craft.)

2. In the last two months we have had direct requests from three industries outside of Grand Rapids for our students and have filled the jobs. (BENJAMIN DYKHUIZEN, instructor in furniture craft.)

3. The Baldwin & Tuthill Machine Co. has asked for another boy because they are so pleased with Thaddeus Lorenski. I am sending a boy immediately. We have placed eight boys in the past two months. (JOHN C. DEBRUYN, instructor in machine shop.)

REPORT FROM VOCATIONAL SCHOOL, HAMTRAMCK

A student in the vocational school, Mary Boyko, employed by Jenks & Muir, was so successful as an office girl that her employer called and asked for another girl "just like Mary." (HAROLD VAN WESTRIENEN, director.)

Leonard Krajenke took the trade woodworking course at the Hamtramck Vocational School and found that it helped him greatly in the two weeks' course in body servicing given at the Fisher Body plant. At the close of the Course Leonard's father received the following letter from the Fisher Body Corporation :

"SIR: At the close of the class of October 7 in the Fisher Body service school, your service man, Mr. Leonard Krajenke, was given a written examination, the questions of which were correlated to the work covered during this class period. Mr. Krajenke achieved a final rating of 90 per cent. The average of the entire class was 90.2 per cent, the highest grade being 90 per cent and the lowest 432 per cent. We were glad to have Mr. Krajenke with us for the two weeks' course in the Fisher Body service school. The knowledge of body construction and service methods gained by this student should prove of real value in the promotion of body servicing within your territory.

Sincerely yours,

FISCHER BODY SERVICE CORPORATION,
L. G. RODGERS.