say that among the men in that line you would get a much higher caliber of man if he were to get four concentrated years with the work of Cabinet officer and be through at that time. Few men I know of in that line would want to bury themselves for life, nor would you get as high a class of man, in my opinion, if it was something that he would take hold of and stay there for life. I do not think you would get any Herbert Hoover to bury himself in the Department of Commerce for his life.

Mr. ROBSION. Has there ever been a time in this country when you could not get properly equipped men to accept places in the

Mr. BLACKMAN. I have never known of it, sir, and I think that would be particularly true in this particular case; I think your leadership would be forthcoming.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you advocate a man or a woman?

Mr. BLACKMAN. I think I should advocate a mind and quality of leadership, and I would not care whether it wore trousers or skirts. There are one or two women I have known in education that I would prefer to see in there rather than a great many men.

The CHAIRMAN. The reason for that question is that there is considerable sentiment in the country to the effect that if a department like this were established, it would be a position that a woman might very well occupy.

Mr. BLACKMAN. I think that is a question of the individual.

Mr. FENN. That is for the President to say, whether he would appoint a man or a woman.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any members of the committee that would like to ask any questions?

I do not know whether you have concluded or not.

Mr. BLACKMAN. I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is almost 10 minutes to 12, and there is a very important resolution coming up in the House at 12 o'clock. I am perfectly willing to stay here until the bell rings, but I wanted to ask the other members of the committee what their pleasure was.

Miss WILLIAMS. We have a number of other speakers whom I know you will find very interesting. We have an ex-service man whom I want you to hear, and we have a grandfather and a grandmother who have learned to read and write very recently, and who have come to give you some of the concrete reasons why this bill should be enacted. They are making their first visit to the Capital, and if it is possible for you to hear them now, I would be very glad if you would do so.

The CHAIRMAN. We can continue for a little longer.

Miss WILLIAMS. A number of speakers, educators, editors, and others have presented before this committee strong arguments for the Sterling-Reed bill, but this morning we have a new type of appeal and it comes from the people that we have been reading and talking about. Scattered throughout the mountain sections of our country, notably in the Southern States, we find the purest type of Anglo-Saxon race and from this Anglo-Saxon population come three representatives to-day-a grandmother who learned to read and write after she had reared 10 children and educated them first in the home school and later sent them away to school. Because she could not read the letters which her children wrote to her and because she could not write to

them was born a deep desire to learn to read and write. Her opportunity to realize this desire came with the establishment of a moonlight school in her community. She joined the group that trooped to the moonlight school. We have an ex-service man who offered his life for his country and served overseas. In that great experience he knew the great tragedy of not being able to read and write. He will tell you what he has accomplished in one of these night schools. Then we have this grandfather, a man who would do credit to this committee, to the Senate, and to even the office of the President of the United States.

These people are the descendants of those fearless pioneers who, at the time of the great western migration from the Eastern States, settled in the Allegheny Mountains. They were taught by their parents from the few books that they had brought with them. The next generation received even less training. The lamp of learning flickered low, and in the succeeding generation it went out, and a shadow fell across the land. These people are not confined to the Southern States alone. I met a great body of them in the lower part

of the Cascade Mountains.

I am greatly indebted to Miss Gray for giving me the opportunity of becoming friends with these people and to get an insight into the great piece of work which she is doing. It does not take a bunch of real southerners long to become friends when they have a mutual interest, and our common interest is education. All of us yearn for it not only for ourselves but for those who come after us. We spent a most pleasant evening together. "Blossom time" appealed to the gentlemen of our party, but Mrs. Mishoe was not sure that it was not Satan's work; but when I told her that President Wilson sought relaxation from his hard labors by going to the theater, I think she changed her mind.

These people came to Washington with Miss Will Lou Gray, who is supervisor of adult education in South Carolina. Miss Gray has been engaged in this work for a number of years and knows its needs. She is a native of South Carolina and a niece of Senator Dial, of that State. I want to introduce Miss Gray, who in turn will introduce the three people whom she has brought with her.

STATEMENT OF MISS WILL LOU GRAY

Miss GRAY. It is a pleasure for me to come here to-day with a few of our people who are going to talk for themselves.

As the chairman of education of the State Division of Women's Clubs, I am representing in that capacity over 8,000 women.

The CHAIRMAN. What State?

Miss GRAY. South Carolina. That organization is said to be, by the men, the strongest organization in South Carolina.

I was interested in the question the gentleman on my left askedwhat results have they gotten from night schools? South Carolina is not a rich State.

In our State we have counties where the per capita wealth behind each child is $800. In other counties it is $3,000. So the child that happens to be born in a county with little wealth is penalized. The State has recognized that, and as a State we are trying to give to the children in South Carolina a certain amount of equal opportunity,

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and our State legislature this year will appropriate quite a bit over a million dollars to equalize opportunities.

The question was asked, Why this negligence on the part of the people toward public education? May I answer that in South Carolina it is largely responsible by reason of the fact that we have not had the dollars. Economically we have not been able to give to the people what the people of other States have been able to give.

Glancing over taxable wealth this morning I noticed that New York has $29,000,000,000; South Carolina has $1,000,000,000. And that is one reason why we are coming to our Government, and although I represent a secession State, I am saying "our Government" very, very feelingly. I believe our great champion of States' rights himself advocated Federal aid for the building of public highways. If he were living to-day I can not but believe that Calhoun would beg for Federal aid for the children of his State.

In the last 10 years South Carolina has led the States in reduction of illiteracy. We have had, however, during the last few years, to refuse the giving of a chance to a man who asked for another night school, because we did not have the money to run that night school. But this man was a school trustee, he was writing that since he had been to one term of night school he wanted another one. And so we feel that if the National Government would but meet the States' amounts raised for education that we could do just twice as much as we are doing now.

For the benefit of the committee I would like to say that we are doing this work among our white people and among our negro people, trying to give a chance to all of them who did not have an opportunity when they were young.

We feel that much money now spent by our Government in the distribution of bulletins would be wisely spent if our 38,000 white people used them who now are illiterate, not to mention our 181,000 negroes who are illiterate. We believe that crime would decrease if we had more popular education. We believe that our people would understand how they could be better citizens if we could get this bill passed.

I am now going to introduce to you Mrs. Lizzie Mishoe, who will tell in her own way just what the night school has meant to her. If we had time I might have these pupils read and write for you, to show how much an old person can learn, because we had a time in South Carolina convincing these old people that they could learn. I remember coaxing one old man- we had to beg a good many of them because they do not flock there, and we do not flock to many things that are good for us-this man said, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." That was his last argument. I was discouraged, I did not know how to answer that. But he himself added, "But I ain't a dog, am I?"

Now you will hear from Mrs. Mishoe.

STATEMENT OF MRS. LIZZIE MISHOE, SOUTH CAROLINA

Mrs. MISHOE. Well, I feel almost like I was out of the world here, ignorant as I am, but I am glad to come, too, and explain the benefits, how much good the night school has certainly done me. In our school district I haven't been but 36 nights, and when it was organized

and we came the first night, with only a few, it was real hard to understand. Old plugs like us couldn't learn, I told them. But I thought I would try it and in about 12 nights I could read and write some. My children were all away from home. I raised a large family and I gave them all the learning that I could. They had to get their education away from home, all except one of my children. They are all married but one; I have one single daughter. When they all got away from home, I always did crave to read and write, because as my children came on they could read and write in their home to the off children. I thought I was getting along very well, but I did want to learn to know it. Then when all got off there wasn't no one at home at all, and one of my sons was in France, and when I got letters, I couldn't read them, and I had to take them off to neighbors to read to me. I had four daughters away from home, and I thought my time had come. You know how mothers is to advise, and I could not advise them at all, because I couldn't write to them. And so when the night school was organized, I went to work and it wasn't long before I could write to them and read their writing, and I think I could soon be graduated if I only just had a chance. [Applause.]

And so we are just getting along fine with our night school, and we just ask for all of you to do the best you can for us. I do believe if the Government had known anything about me before the night school came along they would have just sent a teacher to me.

And so I come into the school right along. Being unlearned does cramp anybody, just like I have been all the days of my life. I have got telegrams traveling on the train and didn't know a thing, and somebody would say, "I know that lady is going to get lost"; but I guess I never have got lost yet.

Miss GRAY. You tell them how you enjoy reading now.

Mrs. MISHOE. Yes, I enjoy it. I can't read without spelling; if a syllable is very long I have to spell it. I haven't got out of that, but I think in time I will. You know 36 nights isn't very much. I believe it would be fine if the day school would get out and let them work and just have night schools. They would make good use of their time. If they just have a little bit of time they make good use of it, and they spend all day and get home and not try. I think it would be nice to have night school entirely.

Miss GRAY. Tell how your ability to read has helped you so much. Mrs. MISHOE. I can read and write now. You see all these old plugs, as I call them and I have another name, I call us old wore-out fellows. I wouldn't tell how far, but I am away up in the sixtiesbecause there may be others here. I never accomplished nothing only just for the satisfaction, but later on if I was to be deprived from my work and have to sit down in the corner and couldn't work and maybe didn't have anything to do, I could read the Bible and read all these things and my letters from the children, and read for somebody else, don't you know, and I could do that instead of sitting there with my lips poked out, or if not I would burn my toes.

So I think it is one of the grandest things that ever has been proposed in the country, leaving out everything else, and the old folks that are unprepared and haven't any learning are the very ones that are almost, you might say, the backbone of the world.

Mr. MOORE. Let me ask you a question. You say you are how old?

Mrs. MISHOE. I am 64. I am ashamed to tell it, though. Mr. MOORE. How do you manage to keep your hair so black? Mrs. MISHOE. I don't know; it hasn't turned gray. If I had had the opportunities of learning young, like young children have, that have the opportunities now, there is no telling what kind of an office I would have filled.

Mr. HASTINGS. How many were in attendance at the night school you attended-how many pupils were in attendance?

Mrs. MISHOE. I declare I've forgot. I think it was about nine. Mr. HASTINGS. Nine adults?

Mrs. MISHOE. Yes, sir. About as old as I am.

Mr. HASTINGS. How many of the nine continued in the faith until they could read and write?

Mrs. MISHOE. All nine of them. We haven't got no one at all now in our school district but what can make something else besides that cross mark, you see.

Mr. HASTINGS. Everybody in your school district now, as the result of these night schools and this effort, can read and write?

Mrs. MISHOE. Yes; with the exception of one or two-I mustn't tell a story. There is one or two. I did have to tell stories, though, when it was first organized, to get them to go, because I told one old man I was so anxious for it, to get the number-I told him, to get him to read and write, that when my husband died I was going to write to him. [Laughter.]

But it didn't do any good at all, he never did come, and he is one of them. But all of them, with the exception of two, in my school district, did come.

Miss GRAY. You see, gentlemen, that in South Carolina it is necessary to have 12 pupils to pay the teacher $1 an hour. So that is why Mrs. Mishoe was trying so hard to get the 12.

Mrs. MISHOE. Our teacher is all wore out in the daytime-teaching in the daytime-and we roll out at night and it's cold, and you have to take that little lantern along, that just gives a little light, and sometimes you don't have a chance to wash your eyes clean, and she will give out, all day teaching, and we really need a bright teacher. We have a fine teacher; they always had a fine teacher, but she teaches in the daytime-works all day-and coming back at night, you can't expect her to be good and bright, even if we are; and I never am, because I have too much to do.

Miss GRAY. Mrs. Mishoe represents one of our coast counties, and I might say the most backward county in the State. It is strictly rural. I am going to introduce now Mr. Aiken, from one of our large industrial counties, Greenville. I introduce Mr. Ernest Aiken, of Greenville.

STATEMENT OF MR. ERNEST AIKEN

Mr. AIKEN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I used to be scared of the Government, but I am proud to come before you people to tell you just what we want. I was raised up in North Carolina.

Mr. FENN. What part?

Mr. AIKEN. In Transylvania County. We lived 4 or 5 miles from a schoolhouse, and I am sorry to say that in them days that my father was more interested in other things than he was in sending his children to school. So we lived up there until I was about 9 years of

age.