Mr. FENN. Yet you say they have tied themselves up to this bill? Mr. WITCOVER. As a general proposition. Mr. FENN. It is the great proposition they are tied up to? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. FENN. So, according to what you state here, the Scottish Rite Masons support it? Mr. WITCOVER. It realizes this bill, with all its defects, will be very much better than no bill at all. Mr. FENN. In other words, they have not gone extensively into the features of the bill? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes, sir; yet they realize no human effort or undertaking is without defect. Everything must have an initial effort; and experience, to my mind, must determine such questions. Mr. FENN. You have come before us, as we have to go before Congress, prepared to answer such questions as are put to you? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. BLACK. Has there been any formal action taken by the national control of the Scottish Rite! Mr. WITCOVER. Our Scott'sh Rite in the United States of America is divided into two jurisdictions. There are two jurisdictions of the Scottish Rite of the United States, but there is only one jurisdiction in every other country of the world. In the United States of America there is the northern jurisdiction and the southern jurisdiction. The northern jurisdiction comprises the 15 States north and east of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers. Mr. BLACK. That is a complete unit in itself? Mr. WITCOVER. That is a complete unit in itself. The limits of that, territorial and jurisdiction, are both fixed. Mr. BLACK. Is there any general control of the organizationinternational control? Mr. WITCOVER. There is no international control. Every five years there is an international conference of the supreme councils of the world. Mr. BLACK. And the various units send their delegates to the convention? Mr. WITCOVER. The various units send their delegates to that convention. Mr. BLACK. But your southern jurisdiction acts independently of the northern jurisdiction? Mr. WITCOVER. Oh, absolutely. Each is sovereign and distinct in its own territory. Mr. WELSH. What is your profession? Mr. WITCOVER. I am an architect. Mr. WELSH. Now you are secretary of the New Age Magazine? Mr. WITCOVER. That is the official journal of the supreme council. You will see it stated further down there that the New Age is the official organ of the supreme council. Mr. WELSH. You are secretary of the supreme council? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. WELSH. And an architect by profession? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes, sir. However, I have given my entire time to the affairs of the supreme council; that is, I have abandoned my profession and am giving my entire time to this work. Mr. WELSH. When this matter was presented, was it done in the convention? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes; at the regular session. Mr. WELSH. Was the matter argued and discussed in all its ramifications, so that the council would know just exactly how disturbing of some of the age-old customs of the country this might be, and the precedent? Mr. WITCOVER. No. Mr. WELSH. Was that all gone into, or was it just put forward to them as an ideal (and I think it is undoubtedly a wonderful ideal), and they just naturally did, as they usually do at conventions of that kind, that is, it sounds good and they vote for it? Mr. WITCOVER. The difference between the supreme council and that general convention, which you mention, lies here, that the supreme council is limited in its membership. Each State has a member, and the discussions are, therefore, more intimate than in the general organization. Mr. FENN. They adopted the principle of education in general as a good thing? Mr. WITCOVER. They adopted the principle of education as a good thing. Mr. FENN. But did not observe the details of this bill? Mr. WITCOVER. No; I am free to say they did not. Mr. FENN. It is very important to us to know how you arrived at your conclusion without going into the details of the bill? Mr. BLACK. Would this bill be proper for discussion before the international convention? Mr. WITCOVER. No; only the general matter of education. Mr. BLACK. Has it been considered before the international convention? Mr. WITCOVER. No, it has not been. The last international convention was held at Lucerne, Switzerland. Mr. BLACK. When was that? Mr. WITCOVER. That was last year; but this is a matter relating essentially to the United States of America, and is of no particular concern to this international conference which considers only such general matters as relate to questions at large. Mr. BLACK. Of a general nature or order? Mr. WITCOVER. Of a general nature or order. Mr. TUCKER. Of course, your great order (and it is a great order although I unfortunately do not belong to it), is in favor of education? Mr. WITCOVER. Absolutely. Mr. TUCKER. Have you found anybody in your ramifications around the country, who is not in favor of it? Mr. WITCOVER. I suppose I should say "No." Mr. TUCKER. We are sitting here, you know, as Members of Congress. We have taken oaths. We do not swear generally, but we have sworn once. But we take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States. We can not vote for this bill unless we believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it is provided for under the Constitution of the United States. Has your order considered that ques tion? Mr. WITCOVER. No, sir; but our order realizes that the gentleman who introduced this bill was governed by the same obligations and duties as the members of this committee. Mr. TUCKER. That is right. Mr. WITCOVER. And he is just as loyal to his duties and to his country. Mr. TUCKER. That is true; we admit that. Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. TUCKER. Now, at last it is not a question of whether education is a good thing; we all believe in that. I spent two years of my life, giving up everything else, to canvass my State of Virginia to see that every child, white and black, in the State had at least a commonschool education, and with the idea, also, there should be at least one high school in every administrational district in the State. I have lived to realize that. But the Constitution leaves this whole question of education to the States. Now, if this bill tends to take that obligation away from the States and bring it here to Washington, do you think that is a desirable thing? Mr. WITCOVER. Well, how about the public roads? Was that desirable? Was there any more than encouragement? Mr. WELSH. The Constitution makes its own provision for that. Mr. TUCKER. There is no trouble about that on the constitutional question; none in the world. Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. TUCKER. And where the Constitution permits a thing, we are in favor of giving it a free course and letting it be glorified. Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. TUCKER. But where it does not, how could we vote for it? Mr. WITCOVER. It would seem I might answer that by saying there is a statement that wherever there is a will there is a way. [Laughter.] Mr. TUCKER. Yes; and that has put some people in the penitentiary. Mr. WITCOVER. Oh, yes. Mr. TUCKER. And put others out of the Cabinet. Mr. WITCOVER. Oh, yes. some through lack of design. [Laughter.) Some through design; Mr. TUCKER. It might put some out of Congress, and we do not want it to do that. Mr. WITCOVER. This bill, as I understand, does not make any appropriation; it makes permissive an appropriation; it determines certain conditions upon which the States may acquire this financial assistance. The details of the operation and of the fund that is made permissible as an appropriation, are, after all, details. The life of the bill, I do not understand, hinges upon whether or not seven and a half millions or double that amount are appropriated for the new department of education; but, after all, that is a mere detail to the general purpose of the bill, which is for the establishment of a department of education. All else you take up is an incident to that. Mr. BLACK. What investigation, if any, did your organization make as to the need of this bill? Mr. WITCOVER. Its general knowledge of illiteracy as disclosed during the war, for instance, and other general and common knowledge known to everyone. Mr. BLACK. Did it enter into the consideration of whether the States could take care of the situation? Mr. WITCOVER. That is a matter of common knowledge. We know there is no State, county, or municipality that can afford money enough for the purpose of education to pay their teachers, to build an adequate number of schoolhouses, or to conduct a sufficient number. Mr. BLACK. Of course, you realize the Chamber of Commerce of the United States has reported adversely? Mr. WITCOVER. No; I did not know that. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think the Federal Government ought to furnish the money to build schoolhouses? Mr. WITCOVER. No; I do not. The CHAIRMAN. Or to pay teachers? Mr. WITCOVER. I think that the Federal Government ought to assist in these things. The Federal Government is not doing these things, I mean, as proposed in this bill; but is rendering assistance to the States, in their own individual efforts. In other words, "The Lord helps him who helps himself." The State must help itself before it can assume to ask assistance from the Federal Government. Mr. WELSH. I understood you to say there was no school district in the United States that could afford to carry on education as it should be carried on? Mr. WITCOVER. That is a general statement. Mr. WELSH. You did not mean that? Mr. WITCOVER. I did not mean that literally, no; I mean as a general proposition that is so. Mr. BLACK. That is principally so in your jurisdiction? Mr. WITCOVER. That is principally so; yes. Mr. WELSH. But it is not so in all parts of the country.. Mr. WITCOVER. That is a statistical situation that is open to argument. Mr. WELSH. I do know this, that there is a continual protest by the local taxpayers against the tax rate which would permit the State to carry out education along the lines that it ought to be carried out. Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. WELSH. And they would be very glad to pass an obligation up to some central authority when it won't pinch themselves; I have no doubt about that. Mr. TUCKER. Has not the imperial State of Georgia greatly increased its appropriation for schools in the last 10 or 15 years? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes; it has followed the example of the illustrious State of Virginia in that respect. Mr. TUCKER. Yes. Mr. WITCOVER. I am very glad to claim kinship with you in that particular. Mr. TUCKER. Fifteen years ago, we appropriated for schools in Virginia an average of $600,000 a year; and last year it went to $10,000,000. Mr. WITCOVER. Yes, sir. The need is so great that the appropriations, large as they are, are altogether inadequate. Mr. WELSH. And they will be, even if this bill becomes a law. Mr. WELSH. We never can keep up with the demand for education, but we are going to do our best. Mr. WITCOVER. That is all that can be done; that is all that can be asked. That is our hope. Mr. TUCKER. Do you see any reason why we should levy taxes down in Georgia, large income taxes and others, bring them up to Washington and then send them back to Georgia, for education or any other purpose? If I am permitted to make such a suggestion or analogy of course it is impossible, but suppose you had 10 barrels of whisky down in Georgia Mr. WITCOVER. Confiscation would develop at once. [Laughter.] Mr. TUCKER (continuing). And you sent it up here to the Treasury, to stay for six months, and then sent it back; you know it would leak. [Laughter.] Mr. WITCOVER. Well, according to the reports, if it were properly contained, it would improve. [Laughter.] Mr. TUCKER. There would be less of it. Mr. WITCOVER. But it will have increased its value. [Laughter.] Mr. TUCKER. Is it not technically just the same thing? We go and levy these heavy Federal taxes on the States, gather the money and bring it up here, with all of the expense of levying those taxes in the States, bringing them up here and then sending them back? Mr. WITCOVER. Yes. Mr. TUCKER. For purposes which the Federal Government has no power to administer, why not keep them at home? Mr. WITCOVER. I am not competent to discuss the question of the power of the Federal Government, of course. Mr. TUCKER. That is at the bottom of this, my friend. Mr. WITCOVER. Georgia has long been a prohibition State, and is not qualified to pass judgment on such hypothetical questions as you have suggested. [Laughter.] So we likewise disclaim ability to discuss some of these other matters. Mr. TUCKER. There are a great many men from Georgia here who can. Mr. LOWREY. I make a point of order, that these people are getting away from the point now, about those 10 barrels of whisky being sent from Georgia here to Washington. Mr. WITCOVER. Gentlemen, 10 barrels of whisky in Georgia would perhaps never reach Washington. [Laughter.] Miss WILLIAMS. At this time, I would like to call on the representative of the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs, which is represented here by Miss Mary Stewart. STATEMENT OF MISS MARY STEWART, NATIONAL CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL FEDERATION OF BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL WOMENS' CLUBS, NEW YORK Miss STEWART. I am the national legislative chairman of the National Federation of Business and Professsional Women's Clubs, with headquarters in New York. I live in Washington. The National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs is one of the newer women's organizations. It is now in its sixth year. It represents approximately 33,000 business and professional women in every State in the United States. That is a |