ceffary that the provision for their exemption fhould take place previous to the enfuing Eafter recefs, or might be deferred until afterwards: upon which fubject it was his intention to propofe to bring in a bill to remove doubts upon the subject, for the purpose of exempting them from penalties, to which by the way he believed they were not liable; but, as doubts were entertained, it would be well to remove them. In case any proceeding fhould be had for the purpose of recovering any of thefe penalties, the House in its justice would interpofe and ftop fuch proceedings. As to the second point, he was a little furprifed at the queftion of the hon. Gentleman; he muft know from his connections, that at the request of some persons immediately interested in the loyalty loan, an application was made to him for the purpose of afcertaining what was the construction put upon the terms and -conditions specified in that act of Parliament; and he referred the point to the Attorney and Solicitor General. The opinion of those learned Gentlemen was communicated to Go-. vernment, and a diftinct communication was made to the Bank, and to that he begged leaye to refer the hon. Gentle

man.

Mr. Dent obferved, that there was a pofitive promise on the fubject of bankers' liability for receiving dividends, &c. under the property tax, that a provifion fhould be made immediately after the Christmas recefs. He muft again repeat his apprehenfion of the danger of deferring it till after the 5th of April, when the four quarters will be due on the property tax. He obferved, that when the bankers had waited on the right hon. Gentleman upon this fubject, they declared he had treated them with great candour, by which he had been led to difmifs all doubt that the right hon. Gentleman would fulfil his promife immediately after the Christmas recefs.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that a fortnight ago he told the hon. Gentleman diftinely his intention to bring forward a propofition, and of his confidence in the difpofition of the Houfe to grant it, for the purpose of protecting the perfons, to whom he had alluded, from the penalties under the property bill; and if it would be any great fatisfaction to them, as by the manner in which the hon. Gentleman preffed it in their behalf he apprehended it would, the meafure might yet be proposed before the Eafter recefs. He did not affect to distrust the hon. Gentleman, but if he had a few hours for the purpose of ascertaining whether it was really

E e 2

and

and bona fide the wish of the bankers that a measure should be brought forward before the recefs, he fhould be glad to hold a converfation upon that fubject.

The Speaker fuggefted the propriety of limiting the indulgence of the Honfe to this irregular converfation.

Mr. Pitt faid, he had no defire to prolong the converfation, but he muft obferve, that as it was ftated that thefe penalties had been incurred, and as it was a general opinion that the parties who had incurred them ought to be indemnified in this cafe, they ought to be relieved from the penalties without delay, left a further difficulty might arife by other perfons inftituting fuits for the recovery of the penalties under the act of Parliament. On the fubject of the loyalty loan, he obferved, that it had been apprehended the act of Parliament had somehow by mistake been drawn up in a manner which was not strictly conformable to the refolutions upon the terms of which the loyalty loan was contracted for; this was a mistake for which he himself was in fome degree anfwerable, and therefore he was the more bound to take notice of it, and to do all he could to rectify the error, for it happened when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The refolutions of the Committee were the foundation of the bargain and contract for that loan, and if the act of Parliament happened by miftake afterwards to be drawn up in a manner that was not conformable to thofe refolutions, it ought to be altered, or fome relief fhould be given to the contractors for that loan, otherwise Parliament would be guilty of a breach of faith towards thefe perfons.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he could affure the right hon. Gentleman that great pains had been taken to afcertain what were really the terms of the loyalty loan, and the opinion of the Attorney, and Solicitor General had been had on it; however it was not poffible for these learned Gentlemen to give an opinion upon any thing but the act of Parliament itself, nor was it poffible for Government without further direction from Parliament, to accede to any conftruction upon the loan, but fuch as the law warranted.

Mr. Pitt faid, he never ftated that the right hon. Gentleman, or the Lords of the Treasury, could do otherwise than comply ftrictly with the act of Parliament; but what he said was, that if the act of Parliament had by mistake been drawn up in a manner not conformable to the refolutions on which, and on which only the loyalty loan was founded, that act ought to be altered, and made conformable to the refolutions

from

from which it emanated; and if it were not made so conformable, Parliament would be guilty of a breach of faith towards the fubfcribers; and in this refpect he took fome blame to himself for the inadvertency.

Mr. Vanfittart, after having made every inquiry, never understood that any very ferious complaints were entertained,

The House then refolved itself into a Committee of the whole Houfe, to confider of ways and means for raising a fupply granted to his Majefty.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that if Gentlemen would have the goodness to turn to the third page of the difpofition paper, they would perceive that the total of grants for the naval fervice of last year was 9,951,3781. and the debt for the naval fervice was 8,174,7111 therefore the grants exceeded the debt by 1,776,6671. This being the cafe, he hould have to propofe that the amount of this furplus should be fued and fupplied, were it not for circumstances he was about to ftate. In the 11th page of the difpofition paper, feveral payments were stated and made by authority of an act of Parliament, out of the ways and means of the year, that amounted to 579,7061. and that reduced the furplus he had above stated, and therefore the Committee would not confider that there was really a faving to the amount of 1,776,6671. that was to fay, that the public had expended lefs by that amount in the navy than the grants amounted to, for that in fact the navy debt had increased 931,6591. laft year. Gentlemen might afk how this could be? but they would be aware, that in many inftances it was wholly unavoidable, on account of what might be paid to feamen on foreign service, and which it was impoffible to calculate the amount of beforehand, and that fometimes accumulated fome time before it could be ascertained. Having ftated feveral fums on this head, the fum he proposed to be voted now upon this occafion was 1,370,6741.-and therefore he moved, that it is the opinion of this Committee, that there be iffued and applied to the service of the year, &c. the fum of 1,370,6641, 2s. 8d. from the furplus of the grants of the year 1803.

Loid Folkeflone contended that there was a fallacy in the account, as in fact there was no furplus, but on the contrary, a deficiency. No notice was taken of the furplus of the confolidated fund. The war taxes had been estimated to produce by the 5th of January laft, 4,500,000l. and had fallen thort 2,600,000l. this therefore reduced the furplus appearing on

the

the face of the accouut to a deficiency of 1,300,000l. He alfo objected to the mode of making up the account, as it could not be understood from it upon what it was the faving had arisen. It had been ftated by a noble Lord on a former occafion, that the land forces amounted to 96,000; the number in the account was only 66,000, he wished to know therefore out of what fund the remaining number were paid. He faw likewife an item of 1,500,000l. to enable his Majefty to take fuch steps as the exigency of affairs might require, but there was no account how that money was expended.

Mr. Vanfittart faid, the account had been made out in a fimilar manner from year to year, the practice being to appropriate the excefs of the ways and means over the fupply in aid of the fupply of the enfuing year, notwithftanding there might be outstanding demands. With refpect to the furplus of the confolidated fund, about 900,000l. remained to be made good. As to the war taxes, they were estimated not to the 5th of January, but to the 5th of April, at a produce of 4,500,000l. out of that however, there had been up to last week paid into the Exchequer 3,130,000l. There therefore only remained a deficiency of 1,370,000l. which it was probable might be paid in before the 5th of April, or at least reduced to a small fum. The items in the account were aranged in the usual way. As to the army, the number of forces ftated on a former occafion, included various defcriptions of force which could not come within this account. Of the furplus ftated on the face of the account, 900,000l. actually remained in the Exchequer unapplied.

Mr. Johnstone begged leave to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the faving that had been alluded to arose from the strict economy of the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, or from any deficiency in the navy establishment?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that the faving arofe no doubt in fome measure from the fyftem of economy that had been adopted, and so happily purfued in every department of the fervice; but that it was to be attributed particularly to the deficiency of feamen that had been voted at an early period, and whom it was impoffible immediately to collect. The fact was, had the number been raised immediately as Parliament had wifhed, he was perfuaded there would have been no faving. But the preparation had been fo great that it must be a confiderable fatisfaction to the Houfe that there was such a saving as appeared on the face

of

of the accounts; the preparation, indeed, had been fo great, that in regard to feamen the number now in the fervice was only 1500 lefs than that voted by the Houfe. In any point of view he would venture to compare the prefent fate of the navy with its attitude at any period during laft war, when the idea of faving had never been entertained, at least when economy did not appear to be made fuch an object. With what accuracy the accounts had been made out, he had only to mention as a proof, that one of the first financiers in Europe (alluding to Mr. Pitt, who was then gone) had heard them ftated without offering any objection.

Mr. Tierney found no difficulty in accounting for the fums that had been faved; they were owing in a great measure, as his right hon. Friend had ftated, to the feamen not having been all raised at the time when voted. Suppofe 1000 men fhould be the deciency occafioned by this means, reckoning each man 71. a month, a round fum would foon be accumulated. What appeared to him extraordinary was, that the estimateshad been fo well drawn, that no one branch of the service rquired aid from another. In former cafes that he had witneffed, whatever was faved in one department had been generally wanted by another. He was glad, however, to fee the noble Lord (Lord Folkestone) purfue that line of inquiry, and it was defirable that people of his rank fhould pay attention to the expenditure of the country. Lord Folkeftone infifted that what was reprefented as a faving was a mere fallacy.

Mr. Vanfittart ftated that the war taxes amounted to above three millions; and in answer to a queftion put by Mr. Fellowes, mentioned that above two hundred thousand pounds had been received from the property tax during laft week.

Mr. Fellowes expreffed his fatisfaction that the difcuffion had taken place, as it gave him the highest pleasure to dif cover the ability, the integrity and economy of his Majesty's Minifters.

The House having refumed, the report was ordered to be received the next day.

The Secretary at War moved the order of the day for a Committee of the whole Houfe on the innkeepers' allowance bill.

The Houfe having refumed, the report was ordered to be received the next day.

The Committee of Supply was poftponed till Friday. Adjourned.

HOUSE