Irish Government; but there was a distinction between the two fervices. The half-pay officers of Ireland had their option whether they would come here or remain in Ireland; but the civil officers were compelled to come here. He applied this to all thofe officers who came here, and he could not help thinking that the Houfe would be of opinion with him, that thofe officers had no more than juftice done to them upon this occafion. On the whole matter, he did not fee any blame imputable to the Commiffioners of the Irish Treafury upon this occafion; and as thefe refolutions were intended to be followed up by fome other refolutions of difapprobation of what had been done, for which disapprobation there was no reason, he would move the order of the day.

Lord Folkeftone expreffed his aftonishment that, after the ftarement which had been made by the noble Lord who propofed the refolutions, any Member of that House could be found to ftand fo boldly forward to juftify the practice to which thofe refolutions referred, and leaft of all did he expect fuch attempt at juftification from the noble Lord who had juft fat down. How the noble Lord could reconcile his doctrine on a former occafion, that there was no depreciation of the Irish currency, with his affertion of that evening, that the payment of the Irish civil officers refident in this country at par was relief from a tax, he was at a lofs to conceive. The noble Lord had maintained that this indulgence was extended equally to all the civil officers refident in this country, while it appeared, from the papers on the table, that more than half the whole allowance ftated was received by the Lords of the Treafury them felves.

Mr. Fox afked the noble Lord (Caftlereagh), whom he fuppofed he must have misconceived in one part of his fpeech, whether he meant to say that the falary of the Irish officer, who refi led here and received it at par, was not increased, although the exchange was ten per cent. againft Ireland, and confequently fo much an advance of the officer here over an officer of the fame nominal falary remaining in Dublin?

Lord Caftlereagh would not admit that the prefent rate of exchange was a proof of the depreciation of the currency of Ireland, but the effect of the defire which the people of that country had to remove their funds here.

Mr. Fox refumed, and expreffed his furprife that any dif tinction fhould be imagined, much lefs infifted on, between the advancement of the salaries of the Irish civil officers alVOL. II. 1803-4. luded

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luded to and the payment of thofe, falaries at par, or the remuneration of them for coming to this country, as the noble, Lord had termed it. The noble Lord muft admit that gol. of British currency was equal to tool. of Irith currency, and yet he argued that the officer who received rool, of the former, inftead of fool. of the latter, obtained no addition to his income. Really the distinction was fo fingular, that he could. not without furprise hear the noble Lord feriously maintain it. But the noble Lord had ftated that this payment at par was only a release from a tax; but was not fuch a release, he would ask, as effectual a way of augmenting an officer's falary as any other that could be conceived? If Parliament were to relieve any defcription of officers from the operation of any particular tax in the country, how would it be understood but as an increase of the falaries of fuch officers? The exemption from any public burthen could imply nothing different, because obviously it must have the effect of advancing a man's revenue. If, faid the noble Lord, Irish officers were called here by their fuperiors to execute their public duty, it would be unjust that they fhould fuffer any lofs. But who were the officers to whofe fuperiors he alluded? Who was the fuperior that was to order the attendance of the right hon. Gentleman on the other fide (Mr. Corry)? His duty as a Member of Parliament could alone render his prefence in this country neceffary. With refpect to the late Lord Chancellor, what neceffity of a public nature called him over to this country at the time he received his falary at par? The noble Lord confeffed that he did not know of any, and indeed it was fcarcely poffible to conceive any reafon that should bring him here, which, upon even the grounds laid down by the noble Lord himself, could entitle that officer to claim the allowance to which the refolutions before the Houfe referred If the noble Lord had in his mind any reafon for the refidence of that officer in this country, why not state it? What could bring an Irish Judge to refide here? The busnefs of fuch man, prima facie, lay in Ireland., This remark applied alfo to the counfel for the commiffioners of the revenue, and to other officers mentioned in the account on the table. The duty of thofe perfons to attend their places in Parliament could never be pleaded as a reafon for granting them the extraordinary allowance which provoked this debaie. He could never patiently hear it even infinuated that, while the country gentlemen of Ireland were, by their attendance on their parliamentary duties, fubject to all the difad

vantages

vantages of unequal exchange, &c. the officers of Government, the fervants of the Crown as they are termed, should be indemnified, fhould have a remuneration for coming to England-that the one fhould have fomething that muft urge him to stay away, while the other fhould have an encouragement to attend. If fuch a fyftem or language approving it were to be countenanced, not only the effence of the conftitution was gone, but all decorum or regard for its forms and fpirit must be extinct. If the late Lord Chancellor had come here, according to orders from his fuperior, that fuperior must be his Majefty, and what neceffity he could have for the keeper of the Irish Seals it was not easy to divine; however, if he had any, it must be a special cafe, and it ought to be stated. If the House were to decide upon the affertion of the noble Lord, that the Irish Chancellor had no doubt fome good reafon for his refidence here, that kind of argument would go the length of juftifying any appropriation of the public money of Ireland in the fame way to any favourite of the Lords of the Irish Treafury who might refide in this country, and this upon the fuppofition and conjecture that he had a good reafon of a public nature and for the public interest for coming. If it were propofed that any officers of an inferior rank, who fhould come to this country from Ireland, fhould be recompensed for extra trouble and expence, he would readily accede to the propofition, but not in the way which had been purfued, in the inftance then under confideration, by the Lords of the Irish Treasury. It had been stated by the noble Lord, that the Lords of the Treasury in this country were in the habit of exercifing a fimilar difcretion with regard to our military officers ferving on foreign ftations; but he hoped not without the confent of Parliament, without fubmitting fuch allowance to the confideration of that House in the army extraordinaries. If not, they too had forgotten that old word, refponfibility. As to the affertion, that half-pay officers on the Irish eftablishment were not employed in any public department in this country, he knew the contrary to be the fact, in feveral inftances, as infpecting officers, &c. and yet they had no remuneration fuch as the civil officers received. It was faid, they had no claim to fuch remuneration; but had they not the fame pretenfion to it as the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland? He was allowed four thousand pounds a year, as an indemnity for the lofs of the place of the Speaker of the Irish Houfe of Lords, which, in confequence of the union, he had no longer to attend. 3 N 2

It

It appeared that while refident in this country he was paid at par his half-pay reulting from this office. Why not then, upon the fame principle, make the fame allowance to other half-pay officers? (A laugh) If the principle were fo extended it would be much more honourable to the Irish Government, though he would not admit that it would be feemly or conftitutional to grant any fuch allowance at all but by the previous confent of Parliament. If any remuneration were deemed neceffary to the civil officers of the Irith Government employed in confequence of the inadequacy of their falaries, the roble Lord who at the enactment of the union had manifested fuch a complete knowledge of projects of indemnities, and had thewn no very niggardly difpofition in distributing them, fhould fubmit a propofition to that House with refpect to their cafe; and there would, no doubt, be found the fulleft readiness to extend their falaries as far as any reafonable ntan could defire. The cafe of the repeal of the abfentes tax did not appear to him to be at all analogous to the transaction before the House, because in the one cafe a tax was removed which was levied upon a man for living in England, while in the other a bonus is given to a man for coming to live in England, and this bonus deducted from the revenue of Ireland. This was a very material difference. The Irish officers who remained in Ireland had good caufe to complain of the increase of falary above them which thofe officers obtained who came to refide in this country. The noble Lord had denied that this practice had been kept fecret, or that there was any reafon to induce the Lords of the Treasury to conceal it; but the noble Lord feemed to forget that by law the Lords of the Treafury were directed to discharge the demands of all claimants on the Treafury before they attempted to draw their own falaries, and yet from the papers on the table it appeared that the Lords of the Treasury paid themselves first, even before they fuffered the money to go to the Irish Treasury. This circumftance afforded a reason why the practice to which the refolutions before the Houfe referred thould be concealed, at leaft that it thould not be expofed if poffible. Under all the circumftances of this question, the honourable Member faid that inquiry thould be made as to the juftice of the claim of every perion who had profited by this practice, and this, without a complete abandonment of duty, could not, in his opinion, be overlooked. He should therefore affent to the motion of his noble Friend, and recommend to thofe interested to apply to that Houfe for any recompence

compence for their fervices they thought themselves entitled to, or any indemnity for loffes they might fuftain.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, this appeared to him to be a queftion upon which there could not exist any difference of opinion, if the facts were thoroughly underfood. The officers of the Irish Government, employed in this country, did not, as had been fuppofed by fome, receive 1001. British, in lieu of 1001 Irish, (that would in fact be an increafe of falary) but they only received 921. British, which was equivalent to 1001. Irish: the only difference was, whether that fum was paid in England or in Ireland. If it was paid in England, then the officer received only as much as he would have received if he had remained in Ireland; but if while the officer was in England, his falary were paid to him in Ireland, then he would be obliged to draw it over here for his fubfiftence, and fuppofing the exchange was 10l. per cent against Ireland, then he would receive inflead of 921. only S21.; fo that the question came literally to this, whether perfons in public offices, who were ordered over here upon public bulinefs, ought to receive 821. or the amount of 100l. Irish currency? It should always be obferved, that thefe offices were created, and their falaries fixed long before the union, and confequently before it could be in contemplation that their fervices would be neceffary in this country. It had been affumed, that the Irish officers received the benefit of this arrangement for the whole of their falaries; this was by no means the cafe; they were only allowed to draw certain portions of their falaries for their fubfiftence, according to the term of their refidence in this country. It feemed adinitted that the officers ought to have fome additional allowance made to them for coming over to this country; the fact was they had no allowance, they were only allowed their travelling expences, and this was granted only to the inferior officers. It was to be confidered alfo, that many of thefe officers were obliged to maintain a double establishment; they were obliged to keep their families in Ireland, while they were living here at a confiderable expence, and yet they received no greater falary than if they had remained in Ireland. They were obliged to come from a country that was cheap, and to keep a separate establishment in a country that was dear, and all they asked was that they should receive their falaries, and that they fhould not have 10 per cent. taken off because they were forced to come here by the orders of their fuperiors.

Mr.