ing into these private hunting grounds and there are quite a lot of deer even in some counties where there is good farming land. There are a lot of deer. It is practically level land and there is quite a lot of game on it. They stock it with birds and there are streams through there in which there is very good fishing and that is attracting people. Major STUART. I think one of the considerations which should be given to the possibilities of forestry is how, with protection from fire, even if you are not in a position to utilize the wood that may grow on the land, well protected and managed forest lands do become a very real and valuable asset for recreation.

Mr. HART. I think it runs into the millions, the money that is spent by tourists and hunters in northern Michigan, but I think that is largely a problem of the State to protect that from the standpoint of income, and they are doing it-that is, the State is doing it-and I think it is up to the State. They are on the ground-close to it— and they know the land intimately. This doing long-range work, especially in a State as we are, I doubt the efficacy of it.

Major STUART. You realize, of course, Mr. Hart, that the men who are handling the Federal properties, are men that are living right there and have for years in those particular communities.

Where the National Government's interest lies in this broad question we are discussing is the lack of security the Nation would have if the State and county would fail to do what is needful in relation to forest lands. That is, consider such factors as watershed protection, such factors as wood supply, and other forest benefits, and some States are in a position of absolute dependence on what other States do with their forest land. They have a very vital interest in what is done on forest lands in other parts of the United States, so there is a real national interest in what happens on forest lands just as there is a real national interest in what happens on agricultural lands. It becomes a national problem.

Mr. HART. We can work up a lot of national problems out there under that theory. Of course, we have a lot of them.

ACQUISITION OF ADDITIONAL FOREST LANDS

Mr. BUCHANAN. The next item is:

For the acquisition of additional lands under the provisions of the act of March 1, 1911 (U. S. C., title 16, secs. 513-519), as amended by the act of June 7, 1924 (U. S. C., title 16, secs. 564-570), $192,100 of which amount not to exceed $17,480 may be expended for departmental personal services and supplies and equipment in the District of Columbia.

Major STUART. The following justification of this estimate is submitted:

CHANGE IN LANGUAGE

It is recommended that the language "as authorized by the act of June 2, 1930 (46 Stat., p. 491)," be omitted, since the particular act cited does not carry an authorization for the fiscal year 1934. Existing law is deemed sufficient authorization for appropriation and no special legislative authorization has been sought. Under the act of March 1, 1911 (36 Stat. 961), as amended by the act of June 7, 1924 (43 Stat. 653), and other amendatory or supplemental acts; a total of 41 national forest purchase areas have been established within 22 of the States east of the Great Plains. Within these units the United States to the present time has purchased or approved for purchase 4,727,680 acres of land, at a total cost of $21,203,021.93. These lands combined with lands reserved from the public domain or transferred from other departments or secured through exchange aggregate 7,231,555 acres now under Federal control. Within these areas there

remain in private ownership approximately 7,500,000 acres that should be acquired in order to realize the public purposes for which the areas were initially established. The estimated cost of these unacquired lands is approximately $30,000,000, and all present circumstances indicate strongly the certainty that as soon as financial conditions will permit the United States will proceed to extend its holdings within the areas.

In recognition of this situation it seems necessary to maintain the nucleus of the skilled and specialized organization developed to conduct this purchase work. While this force will not be engaged on current purchases, it will be employed in the determination and compilation of grant, title, and survey data and in the examination, mapping, and appraisal of lands ultimately to be acquired by the United States, so that its work will contribute fully and directly to the objectives of the appropriation. Of the proposed appropriation, approximately $95,209 will be expended for salaries and wages, and $19,750 for subsistence, travel, supplies, equipment, and other similar items.

The remainder of the appropriation, $85,041, will be used to pruchase small tracts of land vitally essential to the proper protection, management, and use of the Federal lands. Every year it is found that certain privately owned lands control the utilization of the products of the national forest lands, or constitute undue fire hazards or obstruct orderly plans of road and trail construction. Where such lands can be purchased at fair and equitable prices their acquisition generally is the most economical solution of the problems created by their private control.

WORK TO BE DONE UNDER APPROPRIATION

(1) Determinations and compilations of title data, including original colonial grants and other basic information; checks and execution of surveys defining boundaries of public and private holdings; examination, mapping, appraisal, etc., of lands ultimately to be acquired by the United States; preparation of. reports and plans of management; protection and administration of lands now owned by United States; (2) purchase of key tracts or areas so related to present holdings of United States as to control the utilization of the products of national forest lands; or accentuate or increase hazards of fire, insects, or disease; or obstruct the orderly development of the necessary system of roads, trails, and other administrative and protective improvements.

CHANGE IN LANGUAGE

The insertion of the following language at the end of the Forest Service section of the appropriation act after "Total, Forest Service ($17,383,304)" is recommended:

* * * $12,355,519, of which amount not to exceed $26,835 shall be available for the purchase of motor-propelled and horse-drawn passenger-carrying vehicles necessary in the conduct of field work outside the District of Columbia, and in addition thereto there is authorized for expenditure from funds provided for carrying out the provisions of the Federal highway act of November 9, 1921 (U. S. C. title 23, secs. 21 and 23), not to exceed $4,250 for the purchase of motor-propelled passenger-carrying vehicles for use by the Forest Service in the construction and maintenance of national forest roads."

Under the department's authorization for 1933 for purchase of passengercarrying vehicles, $46,740 was alloted to the Forest Service. The estimate for 1934 is $31,085, a decrease of $15,655. A brief summary of the motor-propelled passenger-carrying vehicle estimate follows:

The estimate of authorizations for passenger-carrying vehicles for the fiscal year 1934 is approximately 35 per cent less than the amount allotted to the Forest Service for the fiscal year 1933. The authorization requested is needed in order to substitute where practicable, without increased cost, Governmentowned automobile transportation for either or both privately owned automobiles paid for on a mileage basis and horse and pack outfits subsisted by the Govern ment. Nearly one-half of the authorization requested is needed for the replacement of cars now in service.

Approximately 65 per cent of the employees of the Forest Service do the major part of their work while actually in the woods and must necessarily be in a travel status a great part of their time. Where there are few roads in the forests, work must be performed largely by the use of privately owned Government-maintained horses and employee-owned or hired cars paid for on a mileage basis. It is not economical for the Government to own cars where their use is limited and the annual mileage consequently low; but where roads and the work to be performed call for the greater part of travel by car, it is more economical for the Government to own the car than pay mileage. Mileage rates are based on actual operating costs; and since the Government can purchase cars, repair parts, gasoline, and oil at large discounts and pays no taxes or insurance, it can operate cars for much less per mile than the employee. As a substitute for horses in administration and fire control, the car is indispensable. With the development of roads in the forests, the fire hazard and use of such areas increase and the automobile has been largely instrumental in keeping abreast of such managerial problems. The policy has been the gradual substitution of a more efficient means of transportation for a less efficient one with little or no increase in the aggregate cost. It is recommended that this practice be continued as rapidly as funds will permit.

Mr. BUCHANAN. As to the acquisition of lands for protection of watersheds of navigable streams, what have you to say?

Major STUART. This item, Mr. Chairman, represents a reduction of $7,900 in the item as set up for the fiscal year 1933, and this reduction covers the legislative furlough.

With the sum set up for 1934, it would be possible to continue the needful, experienced personnel for such work, and would leave available some $85,000 to cover the purchase of any tracts in the national forests as might be necessary in connection with utilization of forest products or that are otherwise desirable to consolidate our holdings.

You will remember that we have been carrying on an acquisition program here in the East since 1911. It had its origin in the need for the Federal Government to interest itself in the protection of the watersheds of navigable streams.

Up to date, we have acquired some 4,727,680 acres at a total cost of $21,203,021.93. There were, however, some public-domain lands within the territory within which these purchases were made. Adding those public-domain lands, the aggregate now under Federal control in these eastern areas, including the Lake States and the South, is 7,231,555 acres.

These purchases are made by the Secretary of Agriculture, subject to the approval of the National Forest Reservation Commission. That commission is made up of the Secretary of War as chairman, the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Agriculture, two Senators, and two Representatives.

Over the years, that commission has been impressed, and has emphasized that impression in its annual reports to Congress with the need for the Federal Government through the operation of this project to acquire limited areas of land for the purpose of protecting watersheds and, by the Clarke-McNary Act of 1924, the purchase of lands to demonstrate forest production.

It is under that schedule, and it is under that comprehensive program, that this item falls.

For the current fiscal year, and for the succeeding fiscal year 1934, the budgets have been greatly reduced in amounts, but with recognition of the principle that there should be retained the experienced skeleton force that the Forest Service has had over the years in the handling of this important work.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Does it take $95,000 to maintain a skeleton force? Major STUART. It does.

Mr. BUCHANAN. That is a pretty big skeleton, is it not?

Major STUART. That indicates, Mr. Chairman, as shown on page 206, that while the personnel is 62 for the present fiscal year, that force will be cut in half, to 31, for the next fiscal year, so it is a very substantial reduction and a large elimination of personnel in connection with this item.

Practically, it means that we had available July 1, 1932-that is, July 1 last in our appropriation balances the sum of $1,497,788.39. Our cash withdrawals for the fiscal year 1933 will approximate $1,200,000, leaving a balance carried over into the fiscal year 1934, all of it obligated, of $297,788.39.

This budget carries an appropriation of $200,000 so that, if approved, the land purchases to be consummated in the year beginning July 1, 1933, would total approximately $497,788.39.

In other words, this is not a type of project where your slate is wiped clean at the end of each 12 months. There are many carryovers. While we have had the money available, the ability to obligate these purchases under the very best procedure we could work out, including the examination of titles and other necessary routine, we will still have available, although obligated, as of July 1 next, some $297,000 worth of property requiring completion of the final processes of purchase and that takes the continuance of that process of cleaning up titles, particularly if there is available to us a small sum, such as this contemplates, of some $85,000 for small additional purchases. It means that we could keep this personnel very busy.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It looks like you contemplate having that personnel accumulate data on grants and titles on tracts of land you expect to purchase if Congress follows the policy of purchasing more. land.

Major STUART. To the extent to which the time of this personnel would be available over what I have mentioned as their immediate task, I would have them do that for this reason, Mr. Chairman. Before making the purchase of any land, the National Forest Conservation Commission decides in the first instance as to the limit of the area within which they will purchase land; that is to say, the purchase area. In other words, the commission is unwilling to proceed on a purchase program which would accumulate shotgun areas, it must know in advance which areas it proposes to purchase. There is no intention to buy 100 per cent of the land in each purchase area, but the commission aims to approximate it as closely as it can. The project is not realized until you do approximate 80 to 90 per cent of the purchases.

Within some of these purchase areas no purchases have been made. In others only 25 to 40 per cent of the lands has been acquired to date.

In other words, it can be rightfully anticipated that the Government will appropriate sums of money for the continuation of that

program.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What is this commission doing? Is it recommending any further purchases, or what?

Major STUART. This commission passed a resolution at its meeting last spring recommending that the Secretary of Agriculture submit an estimate, if the finances of the Government permitted, of $3,000,000 for forest-land purchase for the fiscal year 1934. Subsequently it was decided that the financial condition of the Government would not for the present permit submitting that estimate.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Now, Major, what would it take what appropriation-what size appropriation would it take in this item to conclude the purchase of your obligations?

Major STUART. Well, we have not obligated much in excess of our ability to pay.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Well, you have to complete purchases on a little over $200,000 worth of land-that is what you just stated, is it not? Major STUART. That is, we will carry over into the fiscal year 1934 obligations of about $297,000.

Mr. BUCHANAN. All right.

Major STUART. The payment for those lands is contingent upon clearing up the titles.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Is there any work to be done on that?

Major STUART. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Under this appropriation?

Major STUART. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. And what amount would that take?

Major STUART. That would be a part of the current work of the personnel that would be held over.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Certainly it would, but how much?

Major STUART. About the only way you could segregate that Mr. BUCHANAN. (interposing) Would it take one-half of the estimate?

Major STUART. Well, I do not believe you could complete that work to satisfaction if you further reduced your personnel because your personnel is made up of men who do various types of work. You have one set of men that do title examination work and another set of men that do surveying work. You can not complete that project if you just have title attorneys or if you just have survey men.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It could be completed in six months time with all of them.

Major STUART. That would be true if the situation were controlled by the Forest Service, but our difficulty lies in the snags we run into in following through titles, in following through the settlement of estates and whatnot.

Mr. HART. It resolves itself into a question of how many title experts we have.

Major STUART. Well, you would be surprised at the delays that are occasioned in trying to bring these cases through to the point where the Attorney General will accept title.

Take the matter of surveys alone, in some instances our cases are tied up for two or three years in order to get a really satisfactory and acceptable survey.