Mr. HART. Does you department pass upon the title or does the Attorney General's department do that?

Major STUART. The title work is handled through the Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. HART. Then, it is again checked by the Attorney General? Major STUART. The Attorney General's office must be satisfied as to the sufficiency of that work, yes, sir, but there is every tendency to accept the work that has been done by the solicitor's representatives in agriculture.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Major Stuart, this estimate puts this committee in this position: That here is $95,000 that they are appropriating to keep a skeleton organization in existence, to consummate the purchase of $200,000 worth of land.

Major STUART. It is well understood in the Budget, Mr. Buchanan, that that sum would do more than that.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It would do more than that on the future acquisitions of land, but it is not now, at least, a settled policy of Congress and which Congress will not take up, in my judgment, as long as this depression lasts. Where you are going to investigate a lot of titles when the depression is over you may not be able to buy the land within reason, and you would have the investigation of a lot of titles that would be absolutely useless. I do not like the appropriation of money to investigate titles and grants and surveys and things that we may never utilize. That is the condition this estimate puts us in.

Major STUART. Your remarks, Mr. Buchanan, are applicable, I take it, only to the funds which would be used to acquire further land. Certainly you would be willing to grant the money to protect titles to such lands as the commission has approved for purchase?

Mr. BUCHANAN. I would not say that the commission has already approved. I would say for lands that you have not the money to purchase. The commission may approve a lot of tracts of land, but we refused to appropriate the money to purchase last session of Congress. You know we cut this appropriation the last session of Congress?

Major STUART. Yes; but you understand that this holdover of $297,000 is obligated, and that wipes out the amounts appropriated up to the end of the fiscal year 1933.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I asked you how much it would take to consummate all obligations during the next fiscal year. I do not mean all titles. It might go over the next fiscal year, but how much would it take during the next fiscal year to carry on the necessary work of your obligations to purchase land in the amount of $297,000?

Major STUART. You would have to approach that in this way: If it is the intent of Congress-and that has not been implied in this Budget to terminate this acquisition program at the end of the fiscal year 1933, then there would be required the sum of $15,700 out of this acquisition project to terminate all acquisition work, and there would be required $52,800 in addition to other available funds to make it possible properly to manage the areas purchased to date, which has been otherwise placed under administration. In other words,

the sum of $68,500, of which $15,700 would fall under this acquisition item, and $52,800 would fall under our protection and administration item.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Would that conclude all of the obligations during the next fiscal year? I do not mean conclude them, because they may not be concluded then. But sufficient to pay your work for the next fiscal year 1934?

Major STUART. That is the best estimate I can now give you, and if we fall short of it we would simply have to rest on the explanation that we did the best we could with the personnel. I would regret exceedingly if Congress would take that position, that it anticipated the stopping of this project.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I do not know what Congress will do, and I might as well be frank, I have not any light on what this committee expects along this line. I am going to have before this is over with. I am preparing for it either way it turns on this question. I am not only questioning you, but another man that was before us.

It is useless for this subcommittee to take a position that is not going to be sustained before the whole committee.

Major STUART. Is that the figure you wanted?

Mr. BUCHANAN. That is the figure I want.

MAJOR STUART. The best estimate I can give now is $68,500.

PURCHASE OF MOTOR VEHICLES

Major STUART. The next item is motor vehicles. This item is a recommended amendment to the bill, which provides not to exceed $26,835 of the funds available to the Forest Service shall be available for the purchase of motor-propelled and horse-drawn passengercarrying vehicles necessary in the conduct of field work outside of the District of Columbia; and, in addition thereto, it authorizes for expenditure, from funds provided for carrying out the provisions of the Federal highway act of November 9, 1921, not to exceed $4,250 for the purchase of motor-propelled, passenger-carrying, vehicles for use by the Forest Service in the construction and maintenance of national forests roads.

It is estimated that we will have on hand in the Forest Service as of July 1, 1933, 223 motor vehicles. That includes, by the way, 41 railroad speeders and 3 motor cycles. If this authorization is made available to us for the fiscal year 1934 (and the authorization is less by $15,655 than the amount set up for the current fiscal year), we would make 58 purchases of motor vehicles. Twenty-five of them would be replacements. That would be a net increase of 33 vehicles. Mr. BUCHANAN. What was your net increase for this year? Major STUART. Our estimated net increase for 1933, the net addition to the fleet in the fiscal year 1933, is 39. This provides for a net increase, in 1934, of 33-6 less machines, 1 of the 33 being a railroad speeder.

This statement should be made, Mr. Chairman: We find, as a rule, where considerable mileage is covered, it is much more economical for our men to use Government-owned vehicles of the type that we are permitted to purchase under this appropriation, than it is to operate their own cars. We have some 1,500 cars being used that are personally owned and they may draw mileage. It costs about 5 cents a mile, as an average, for personally-owned cars; whereas, we can operate Government-owned cars for 4 cents. It is, therefore, strongly

to our advantage financially, so far as we can bring it about, to have Government-owned cars used.

We estimate there should be at least 400 more cars purchased, as we can, replacing these personally-owned cars that are drawing mileage.

Mr. BUCHANAN. You mean your entire fleet should be 400?

Major STUART. Our entire fleet should be 400. We now have, as I previously stated, eliminating the railroad speeders and motorcycles, 140 cars. Adding the 1933 accretion of 39 and the estimated accretion, for 1934, we would have 211 cars. I think it is one of the most economical expenditures we can make. These cars average in price some $535. To my mind it is an economical thing to do, instead of paying a man who has to use a car 5 cents a mile to operate his own car Mr. BUCHANAN. What is the average life of a car out there in the Forest Service?

Major STUART. Has that been figured out?

Mr. MAHURIN. We trade in and secure, a new car, generally, once in three to four years.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What is the average mileage?

Mr. MAHURIN. I would say about 40,000 to 50,000 miles for the life of the car before trade-in. The average annual mileage of Government-owned cars in the Forest Service for the fiscal year 1932, according to the report prepared by the Bureau of Efficiency, as required by the act of July 5, 1932, was approximately 10,000 miles.

Mr. SUMMERS. What is the average per annum mileage of the hired cars?

Major STUART. The average annual mileage per car is 2,500 miles on Government business for personally owned cars. Some will be used from 5,000 to 10,000 miles and it would be more economical to operate Government-owned cars in these instances.

Mr. SUMMERS. Annually.

Major STUART. Yes, sir.

Mr. SUMMERS. Well, if there is a cent a mile more there is an addtional

Major STUART. An additional $25 to $100. It does pile up; there is no question about the economy of it, granted that the man has to use a car, and that is inevitable with us.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Well one reason you can operate these cars for 4 cents, if Government-owned, is because you purchase your oil and gas wholesale and get your cars for a cheaper price than the individual

can.

Major STUART. That is one reason.

Mr. JUMP. And they are tax free, so far as State taxes are concerned.

Major STUART. Our officers are able to take advantage of those contracts to buy oil and gas on the Government rate. The main difference is in the question of depreciation on a higher purhase price, license fees, and taxes.

Mr. JUMP. And no insurance is paid on Government cars.

Mr. BUCHANAN. No insurance?

Mr. JUMP. None on the cars. Our men now, in many cases, are. carrying and paying insurance out of their own pockets when driving Government cars, so that, when they have an accident and are sued, they will have a surety to protect them against personal damage suits.

One factor, Major Stuart, that I feel sure enters into this situation, as it does in all the bureaus, is the fact that during the past two years the ability of the department to purchase transportation from employees by reimbursement has become tremendously impaired and, in some cases, absolutely nullified due to the uniform travel act and the comptroller's decisions thereunder, which greatly limits the use of the cars. There is a case in court right now on a private action brought by an employee where there is an attempt to determine just what the law does mean as to authority to reimburse a man for use of his car at or in proximity to his official station. And in that case, which involves a forest ranger in Virginia, the comptroller contends in his answer that his official station is the entire forest he covers, and he can not collect for use of his car within his forest. Is not that the case in the Shenandoah Forest?

Mr. MAHURIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JUMP. The whole subject of the use of these cars by reimbursement is up in the air at this time; it is one of the principal operating problems that we have on hand in the department at the present time. But the comptroller, within the last few weeks, has issued a new decision which improves the situation to some extent, and we have hope for some relief in a revision of the uniform regulations covering this transportation.

Mr. BUCHANAN. On the other hand, he can go out and hire a car and thereby pay a higher price for the use of it, and the bill will be paid; is not that correct?

Mr. JUMP. Yes, provided there is no cheaper common carrier available.

Major STUART. There is no question about it; it has become exceedingly difficult in the Government service to effect economies. Mr. JUMP. The constant effort to do business under complications of this type is a great drain on the appropriations.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What per cent of your forest roads and trails, taking all avenues of communication in the forest, can be traveled by car?

Major STUART. I should say anything we could dignify with the name "road" can be traveled by machine.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What per cent of your roads, then?

Major STUART. All of our roads can be traveled by machine.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What per cent of your travel is communication in the forests?

Major STUART. Any figure I give on that, that is, on the question of what percentage of roads traveled by a forest officer is inside of the forest, as against the amount outside, would be an estimate. But let me approximate it. I should say 70 per cent of our forest officers' time is spent on the roads within the national forests boundaries, and the other 30 per cent on adjacent roads that they must necessarily cover to get about.

Mr. BUCHANAN. To get from one section of the forest to another? Major STUART. Or to come from a valley country into the forest, or to go from one part of the forest, through the valley, into another part of the forest.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER, 29, 1932.

PERMANENT, INDEFINITE APPROPRIATIONS, AND
SPECIAL FUNDS

Mr. BUCHANAN. We now come to the permanent annual indefinite appropriations.

Major STUART. The next item, Mr. Chairman, covers permanent, indefinite appropriations, and special funds. These are fixed liabilities. They include refunds to depositors of excess deposits, national forest fund, and items which follow.

REFUNDS TO DEPOSITORS

This first item, refunds to depositors, is an appropriation necessary in order to permit refunds to depositors of money deposited by them in excess of the amount due the United States. It is necessary to have the appropriation in order to make the refunds. The amount carried here is the same as 1933-$75,000.

NATIONAL FOREST RESERVATION COMMISSION

Similarly, the next item, national forest reservation commission, is an item set up each year. For the fiscal year 1934 it is $475, the same as for the fiscal 1933, to cover the necessary expenses of the commission.

PAYMENTS TO STATES AND TERRITORIES

The next item, payments to States and Territories, national forests fund, is an amount that goes to the national forest States, representing 25 per cent of the national forest receipts. For the fiscal year 1934, the estimate is $940,000, as contrasted with $1,240,000 for the current fiscal year, the decrease being due to the anticipated decreased receipts.

Mr. BUCHANAN. That is payments to States and Territories?

Major STUART. That constitutes 25 per cent of our estimated gross receipts from the national forests for the fiscal year 1933, on which the appropriation for the fiscal year 1934 is based.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It becomes net receipts when paid to them, so far as they are concerned?

Major STUART. The States receive 25 per cent.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I understand-net.

Major STUART. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It costs them nothing?

Major STUART. It costs them nothing.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yet we pay them 25 per cent of our gross receipts and it becomes 25 per cent of the net receipts when it reaches them, so far as they are concerned?

Major STUART. True; in that sense, yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. And we lose on the operation of the national forests, of course?

Major STUART. We are taking in less money than the cost of administration.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Surely.