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Mr. ASHLEY. When I say "lowest-price cars," I mean the Ford, Chevrolet, Plymouth, and other cars in that price group. They are cars which, if you wrote a specification for them, about all you would have to say would be "one 5-passenger automobile." The cheapest standard car on the market would be the lowest-price car.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I do not know why these cars wear out so soon in the Government service. I know a number of those Chevrolets and Fords that have gone fifty and sixty thousand miles and are still running.

Mr. ASHLEY. That is true, but they run at a larger expense per mile.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I notice in this hearing where pretty nearly all of these cars you propose to exchange for new ones have run 50,000 miles.

Mr. JUMP. Where did you see that?

Mr. BUCHANAN. In the testimony of some of these people.

Mr. JUMP. That may have been the testimony in some individual

case.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It might have been just in one bureau.

Mr. JUMP. Yes; but I do not believe everybody gets that average mileage out of their cars, even private individuals, except where mounting costs are paid during the latter part of the cars operation. Here and there you find one who gets unusual total mileage but for every one who talks about it there will be a dozen who turn their cars in when they have done 30,000 or 40,000 miles, and do not say a word about it.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Even the average life of a car in the Government service is from three to four years.

Mr. ASHLEY. Yes; from three to four years, but by that time the cost of maintenance and the cost of operation become excessive and pays us, in the long run, to replace at reasonable intervals; it reduces the price per mile of transportation, which is really what we are concerned with. It reduces that to the lowest point by getting rid of the car before it costs too much to operate it.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Well, about what amount per year is the cost of maintenance before you deem it necessary to exchange a car?

Mr. ASHLEY. I would say the moment a car began to cost us over 4 cents a mile to operate, taking into account the depreciation and everything else, we ought to get rid of it and get a car that would keep our figure down to that 4 cents. Now that would depend, of course, on the locality in which the car is used, and the use to which it is put there. You can not abuse a car, as you may have to abuse it in some cases, without shortening its life. But I am speaking, of course, always in terms of general averages, based on the records of the entire number of cars operated by the department.

Mr. JUMP. We have uses ranging from cases where a brand-new set of heavy-duty tires will be worn out in a few weeks all the way to the usual type of transportation most of us are familiar with, in and around cities, where a set of tires will be used for two years or more. But in some of the forest road-building projects for example, where it is necessary to drive before even the roads are built, it knocks the cars to pieces, and a brand-new set of tires will sometimes be worn out in five or six weeks.

Mr. BUCHANAN. I understand that.

Mr. ASHLEY. A sandy country seems to be hard on cars and tires, too.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Have you any cost-repair record, per year, showing where it gradually increases as a car gets older?

Mr. JUMP. I think we can get that from the Bureau of Public Roads. Mr. ASHLEY. We can get that record for you very easily; but that seems to be a matter of common experience; any man who drives a car knows after he has driven it for a certain number of miles that his car has to go to the shop oftener and he has more repairs to make. Mr. JUMP. After he has it for two years he faces the question of tire replacements, battery, paint deterioration, loss of engine compression, and a host of other expenses which usually do not appear until about that time.

Mr. ASHLEY. For example, the oil does not stay in the car, and he is constantly using more oil; parts are continually breaking; more frequent adjustments are required. This means interruption of important work.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Do you keep a record of each car in order to find out when it exceeds 4 cents a mile?

Mr. ASHLEY. We keep a record on every car, covering its performance and what it costs from day to day and from month to month. Mr. JUMP. Mr. Ashley does not keep that

Mr. ASHLEY. I do not keep that, but that is kept in all of the bureaus where they operate these cars. I would like to show you a summary of the Bureau of Public Roads, for example, on its passenger cars and on its trucks; even in this summary form you can see how much of a record is kept [exhibiting]. These summaries are the accumulated totals on each car based on the monthly reports which the men who operate the cars send in to the bureau, and the bureau keeps adding the monthly figures in to the totals and, at the end of each six months, prepares a statement of this sort.

I think Mr. Ashley has done the best he could on the passengercarrying vehicle business, but every time I hear the subject discussed en masse, I am impressed by the fact that the best you can do is to take the total figures and divide them and work out the averages. The conditions of use are so different, taking into account the highly varied activities of the department, that I am almost hopeless of dealing with the figures in any conclusive way, except by discussing them as we consider each bureau separately. To-day, when you had the Bureau of Food and Drugs before you, you put their representatives through a pretty thorough examination, car by car, and they had the facts, city by city. If the committee desires to go into that much detail, that is the way in the future that the bureaus will be prepared to give it and the committee can interrogate them and get the specific facts in each case. Mr. Ashley is keeping informed as best he can, but he is our purchasing officer; he does not know personally what these bureaus are doing from day to day in an operating detail like this and the only one you can get that from is the bureau itself, because it is an operation that you can not divorce from the daily routine operations of the bureau.

MONDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1932.

COLLECTION OF SEED-GRAIN LOANS

STATEMENT OF G. L. HOFFMAN

Mr. BUCHANAN. We will take up the item, "Collection of seedgrain loans." The item is as follows:

To enable the Secretary of Agriculture to collect moneys due the United States on account of loans made under the provisions of the acts of March 3, 1921 (41 Stat., p. 1347), March 20, 1922 (42 Stat., p. 467), April 26, 1924 (43 Stat., p. 110), February 28, 1927 (44 Stat., p. 1251), February 25, 1929 (45 Stat., p. 1306), as amended May 17, 1929 (46 Stat., p. 3), March 3, 1930 (46 Stat., pp. 78, 79), December 20, 1930 (46 Stat., p. 1032), February 14, 1931 (46 Stat., p. 1160), and February 23, 1931 (46 Stat., p. 1276), not to exceed $500,000 of the repayments made during the fiscal year 1933 to the appropriations contained in Public Resolution Numbered 114, approved January 15, 1931, and in the Interior Department Appropriation Act for the fiscal year 1932, approved February 14, 1931, to carry out the provisions of Public Resolution Numbered 112, approved December 20, 1930, as amended (46 Stat., pp. 1032, 1160, 1167) is hereby made available, of which amount not to exceed $60,000 may be expended for departmental personal services in the District of Columbia.

Mr. HOFFMAN. The following statement is presented in connection with this item:

The estimate contemplates making available for collection purposes $500,000 from repayments made during the fiscal year 1933, This amount is needed for collection expenses during 1934 on the uncollected loans estimated on July 1, 1933, to be in excess of $20,000,000.

The necessity for this amount lies in the fact that during the fiscal years 1931 and 1932 loans were made in 31 States affected by drought and sterns totaling $57,223,775. Included in this amount was $1,453,024 loaned to agricultural and livestock credit associations. In addition, $8,829,555, included in the above amount was loaned since July 1, 1931, in several of the Northwestern States affected by drought for the purpose of feeding livestock, which loans matured on September 30, 1932. Effort is also being made to collect outstanding loans made prior to 1931.

It is estimated that a larger percentage of the seed loans made in the spring of 1931 and the livestock loans made in the fall of 1931 and the spring of 1932 will remain unpaid at the end of the fiscal year 1933 to be collected during the fiscal year 1934 than in the case of any of the preceding loans. Statement of condition as of June 30, 1932, of the various seed loans is shown in the following tabulation:

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Record of loans and collections, as of June 30, 1932—Continued

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1 Collection of $1,324,899.36 principal and interest made from July 1 to Oct. 25, 1932.

ACTIVITIES UNDER THIS APPROPRIATION

The appropriation requested is necessary in order to maintain regional field offices and to effectively carry on an adequate collection campaign during the fiscal year 1934. The appropriation provides for the force engaged in collecting the various loans authorized by Congress under appropriations directly to the Department of Agriculture. Field offices are maintained at Memphis, Tenn.; Dallas, Tex.; St. Louis, Mo.; Minneapolis, Minn.; Salt Lake City, Utah; Spokane, Wash.; and Washington, D. C.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Tell us what this item provides?

Mr. JUMP. It proposes to make available not to exceed half a million dollars from the repayments under the various seed-loan items for continuation of collections during the next fiscal year. Mr. Hoffman, of the seed-loan office, is here to give you any information you may want on this item..

Mr. BUCHANAN. This appropriates $500,000 of the balance of $80,000,000 that was allotted to the Secretary of Agriculture to make crop production loans; is that correct?

Mr. JUMP. It is not the balance; it is taken from repayments; is that right, Mr. Hoffman?

Mr. HOFFMAN. It is from the repayments; the unobligated balances, by the language in last year's agricultural appropriation act, were covered into the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts on June 30, 1932. Mr. BUCHANAN. Exactly what does this appropriate?

Mr. HOFFMAN. This appropriates half a million dollars of the collections that we make this present fiscal year.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Is this in connection with the acts authorizing the appropriation of $45,000,000, $20,000,000, and $2,000,000?

Mr. HOFFMAN. In 1931, there were three appropriations: One of $45,000,000 for the purchase of seed, feed, and fertilizer; $20,000,000 for loans to individuals for the purpose of assisting in forming local agricultural credit corporations, live stock loan companies, etc., and rehabilitation or food appropriation and $2,000,000 which was

appropriated for the six Southeastern States. These six States were not eligible for loans under the drought legislation.

Mr. BUCHANAN. These three loan acts were passed by this Congress?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir; a total appropriation of $67,000,000 was made available by those three acts.

Mr. BUCHANAN. The $20,000,000 appropriation was in the Interior bill, was it not?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. You have collected a good deal of that money,

have you

not?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir.

AMOUNT OF MONEY LOANED OUT, COLLECTED, AND AMOUNT of INTEREST

Mr. BUCHANAN. How much did you loan?

Mr. HOFFMAN. We loaned out of the $67,000,000 approximately $55,000,000.

Mr. BUCHANAN. How much of that have you collected?

Mr. HOFFMAN. We have collected in cash between $16,000,000 and $17,000,000 up to June 30. In addition to that we hold certain collateral.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Up to June 30, last?

Mr. HOFFMAN. 1932.

Mr. BUCHANAN. You have no figures of any collections that you have made this fall?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir. I was speaking as of the last fiscal year. In addition to that $16,000,000 in cash, we hold collateral in the nature of warehouse receipts representing cotton and other products worth at the present market price about $12,000,000. That has not been sold. From July 1, 1932, up to November 30, from the appropriations we have this year of $500,000, we have collected $1,688,

408.81.

Mr. BUCHANAN. In cash?

Mr. HOFFMAN. In cash. That does not include warehouse receipts that we have received since that time.

Mr. BUCHANAN. What does that amount to?

Mr. HOFFMAN. I do not have the figures on the warehouse receipts. Our expenditures from July 1 up to the present time have been about $321,000 to collect $1,688,408.81.

Mr. BUCHANAN. That makes quite a collection fee, does it not?

Mr. HOFFMAN. $321,000?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Yes, to collect a little over a million dollars.

Mr. HOFFMAN. It is over a million, six hundred thousand dollars. Mr. BUCHANAN. That is about 20 per cent.

Mr. SANDLIN. You have also taken in warehouse receipts which is not figured in this?

Mr. BUCHANAN. Have you some warehouse receipts on this year's collections?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. But you do not know how much. Have you any idea approximately?

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