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Representative BLANTON. Notwithstanding the fact they own it and

you do not?
Miss NALLS. I don't own it and I don't want to own it.
Representative BLANTON. But somebody else does own it?
Miss Nalls. Yes.

Representative BLANTON. And you are defying them now, as the legal owners of it, and refusing to pay what they require?

Miss Nalls. Yes; because if I am going to pay more, then I will go into an up-to-date building. I can go into an up-to-date building and pay what they want for the same kind of an apartment that I have now.

Representative BLANTON. Do you in telling the committee whether or not you own an automobile?

Miss Nalls. No; I can not afford an automobile.
Representative BLANTON. You do not own one?
Miss NALLS. No, sir.

Senator COPELAND. Miss Nalls, your rent, as I understand it, has been doubled!

Miss Nalls. If I pay the next raise, it will be double.

Senator COPELAND. You decline to tell us what your income ishas your income doubled in the same time?

Miss Nalls. It has not increased $1 in five years.
Senator COPELAND. And you are not a Government employee?
Miss Nalls. No, sir.
Senator COPELAND. But you are employed in a department store?
Miss Nalls. Yes, sir.
Senator COPELAND. Do you sometimes serve Government em-
ployees?

Miss Nalls. Do I sometimes serve Government employees?
Senator COPELAND. Yes:

Miss Nalls. Yes; that is mostly all my trade, but I notice they are not buying as much as they used to.

Senator COPELAND. But I suppose Government employees have to buy things and have to be waited on in the stores ?

Miss NALLS. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. And the matter of housing is not the only thing that is involved?

Miss NALLS. No; they have to wear a few clothes.

Senator COPELAND. In other words, Miss Nalls, you feel since you are a citizen and serving the Government in the sense you are taking care of the needs of the Government employees, you are entitled to some protection? I have no further questions.

Miss Nalls. I do think so. I do have to earn my salary.

Representative BLANTON. Miss Nalls, will you mind telling the department store you work for?

Miss Nalls. I prefer not doing that. I don't care to bring my business into this matter.

Representative BLANTON. Is your service any more material to the Government employees than the fact that your employer is running a department store that furnishes them a place to buy and things to buy? Miss WALLS. I think your argument is most ridiculous sometimes. The Senator told me I was through

Senator COPELAND Miss Nalls, I am not the boss. [Laughter and applause.]

Representative PlaMMER. Mr. Chairman, I must insist that this is improper-

Representative BLANTON. That is all right. It reflects more on the lady than it does on me.

Representative HAMMER. I am referring to this attempt at cheering The CHAIRMAN. If it is continued we will adjourn the hearings.

Miss FLORENCE B. MORRELL. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one question as a parliamentary question? Is the time that Mr. Blanton is consuming in interrogating witnesses taken out of the tenant's time? There has been only eight hours, I understand, allotted to the tenants. Is the time that he is using to be taken out of their time?

The CHAIRMAN. The time that is occupied by proper questions; yes.

Miss MORRELL. Mr. Chairman, the questions that Mr. Blanton is asking have absolutely nothing to do with the case.

Representative BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I am not going to permit any Senator or any Representative or any witness to question the kind or mode of interrogation I shall pursue as a Kepresentative of the United States Government at a committee hearing. I am going to pursue my rights as I see fit. I presume that when there are witnesses here against the rent law. when a Senator or Congressman questions them in behalf of the law, that is time occupied as much as any other time. I am not questioning their right to ask questions. If we are not going to have that kind of a hearing, please excuse me from participating in the hearing. If we are not going to have a proper hearing, I can get my rights on the floor of the House when this bill comes up. I do not have to get them in the committee. When the bill comes up on the floor of the House I can get every right that a Congressman has. I do not have to ask the committee for them, but I do ask the chairman to see that I am not lectured by a witness because I am a Representative of the Government. I am away from my family to-night, down here this cold, snowy night, working.

Miss MORRELL. So are we.

Representative BLANTON (continuing). When I could be at some place of pleasure. This is not a pleasure for me.

. The CHAIRMAN. Will the Congressman allow the chairman to state his position?

Representative BLANTON. Certainly; but I insist on my rights.

The CHAIRMAN. Any question asked a witness should be considered as part of the time allotted, but questions taken up between Mr. Blanton and myself have no right to be considered against the time.

Representative BLANTON. Certainly not.

The CHAIRMAN. Because they are entirely outside of the evidence given by the witnesses.

Representative BLANTON. They are matters of discussion, and I agree with the chair, but I do take exception to the witness lecturing me about the kind of questions I am asking.

Miss MORRELL. Mr. Chairman-
The CHAIRMAN. One moment; you are not on the stand now.

I want to state that in my judgment it makes no difference whether a person is employed in a store involved in supplying food, clothing, or anything else to the Government employees, the effect is the same. Washington, as I stated before, is a city for the employees of the Government. Their time is taken up in working for the Government. Other people must be living here in the city and working to supply the necessaries of life in order that these people may supply proper time and efficient service to the Government. So it makes no difference in my judgment. There ought to be some allowance of time made for just such discussions as this.

Senator COPELAND. I do not think the tenants here have any just cause for complaint. I am sure that the questions which all of the members of the committee are asking are furthering the cause which they represent.

Miss MORRELL. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to see that the tenants got their eight hours; that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. We will see how we get along.

Mrs. Brown. Senator Ball, may I make a statement at this point, before I bring in the next witness?

The CHAIRMAN. Under oath?
Mrs. Brown. I am willing to swear to it.
The CHAIRMAN, Go ahead; you are under oath anyway.
Mrs. Brown. Yes; I am under oath all the time.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; as long as you are testifying before this committee.

Mrs. Brown. It is just exactly this sort of question which makes it difficult for witnesses to come before the committee, because so many of them suffer as a result of the testimony they give here.

I want to say that one of the gentlemen on the committee stated that there are rules and regulations in some of the stores—and there are such rules and regulations in other places—which prevent people from telling their business and telling their salary and things of that kind, and therefore, I want to say in behalf of the tenants that it is not an unwillingness on their part to testify but it is an unwillingness to do that which is jeopardizing their jobs, Mr. Blanton, which makes some of them hesitant about giving you such details as that; it imperils their position to do those things, and I wanted to make that word of explanation.

Senator JONES. Are there any regulations in any of the departments which prevent an employee from giving that information?

Mrs. Browy. This was not a Government worker.

Senator JONES. I thought you were referring to Government workers.

Mrs. Brown. No; I was referring to some of these other people who are not Government workers.

TESTIMONY OF DR. E. W. SCHWARTZ

(The witness having been duly sworn by the chairman, the gentleman testified as follows:)

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, where do you live?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. I live in the Plaza Apartment, apartment No. 402.

Senator COPELAND. Where is the Plaza?

Doctor SCWHARTZ, Washington Circle, Twenty-second Street and Pennsylvania Avenue.

The CHAIRMAN. Apartment 402, you say-how long have you been there?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. I have been there six or seven years.
The CHAIRMAN. What did you pay when you first went there?
Doctor SCHWARTZ. Fifty dollars.
The CHAIRMAN. I notice on the chart the rent starts with $60.

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes; that is the rent now of 402. Sixty dollars is the rent I pay now and $80 is the rent which is demanded of me.

The CHAIRMAX. The rent has been advanced $20 a month?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes. The apartment rented for $40 before the war-before I moved in.

Senator Jones. What is the size of the apartment?

Doctor SCHWARTZ, Three large rooms, kitchen, and a very small breakfast room and bath; and I have recently been served with notice to quit-an eviction notice.

Senator JONES. What family have you?
Doctor SCHWARTZ. A wife and two children.

The CHAIRMAX. Go on and give us what you think is proper and what complaint you have.

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Sixty dollars rent for the apartment I consider is the limit a person ought to go. The service is very poor. They are supposed to have a day and a night elevator service. Part of the time we have to walk up and part of the time the elevator doors are left open and if one of my children should accidentally go out there they might fall down if the door was not locked. They should not leave it open. The apartment is not kept like it used to be a year ago under previous management. The place has been cold at times, and we have one roomer and this roomer had to leave on account of the service. We have now a broken water pipe in the bathroom that we can not get fixed. We have to notify the janitor and he has to notify the management, but they have done nothing about it.

Senator Jones. How long has it been broken?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. It has been broken for three weeks. When they have plumbing done around our place, or in my place, the janitor does the plumbing and I understand it is against the District law for janitors who are not licensed plumbers to do that. This janitor put in a water flush box.

Senator Jones. When did that property change hands last?
Doctor SCHWARTZ. It changed hands last summer.

Senator Jones. Was your service good up until the time of that change?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. We considered that the service was worth $60 a month up to the time of that change. The service is not worth $60 now.

Senator Jones. After the change was made, the advance was clemanded and the service

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Depreciated.
Senator Jones. The service depreciated!

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes. Those are the pertinent facts I can think of now. If there are any questions, I will try to answer them.

Representative BLANTON. Are you an employee of the Government?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes.
Representative BLANTON. You work where?
Doctor SCHWARTZ. Bureau of Chemistry.

Representative BLANTON. Would you mind telling what your salary is?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Telling my present salary or my past salary?

Representative BLANTON. Your present salary now-what will you get this month?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. I got $3,000 a year.

Representative BLANTON. And you are paying $60 and they are asking $80?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes.

Representative BLANTON. And the $60 is only an advance of $10 over what you paid five years ago?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Yes.

Representative BLANTON. Is the breakfast room large enough for a dining room !

Doctor SCHWARTZ. Not comfortably.
Representative BLANTON. Do you use it for a dining room?
Doctor SCHWARTZ. No.
Representative BLANTON. You just use it for breakfast?

Doctor ScHWARTZ. We just use it as a spare room, or a spare store room.

Representative BLANTON. What did the roomer pay when he was there?

Doctor Schwartz. I think it was $25 for one room and the keeping of it, light, and for some meals—an occasional breakfast.

Senator COPELAND. Doctor, have you sought other places-have you looked around now to see if there are apartments available?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. My wife has looked around; yes.
Senator COPELAND. What did she report about the conditions?

Doctor SCHWARTZ. That the conditions were as bad as the increased rentals which were demanded.

Senator COPELAND. That is to say, if you were to leave this place where you are, you would not know where you could go to do any better and be comfortable?

Doctor SCHWARTZ, I would be worse off than I am at paying this rental of $60, because I can not afford to pay $80, considering all any expenses and obligations.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. L. T. DORMAN

(The witness having been duly sworn by the chairman, was examined and testified as follows:)

Mrs. DORMAN. I have been a tenant in Clifton Terrace apartment, 207 east, for almost three years as the chart will show you at $22.50.

After going to every real estate office in the city in 1922 and without being successful in finding an apartment, we went to the Northwest Realty Co., who made a specialty in the work of finding apartments for people and gave them $10 to find us this apartment, one room, kitchenette, bath, with never a ray of sunshine entering

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