the only fire escape," and she said, "Oh, no; there is another one down here." So she took me down to the other one and to get to that one you went through a room belonging to some other party. I said, "Well, if a person was ill, or old, or anything like that and the place was on fire, the only way to get out would be to break the door," and she said, "Yes, that is true."

She showed me another apartment with two rooms, a dark, back apartment of two rooms and bath. This apartment had a small tiny bit of a cubbyhole which they called a kitchenette. You couldn't turn around in it. I think if you put a pot on the place to boil you would have to turn around to get it off. I don't know how you could use it at all. That was $47.50 and $2 extra a month for electricity.

I said, "Who has this place," and she said "Moore & Co." I said, "He is a realtor." She said, "Yes, he is one of the realtors." Then I went into another place right there on Eighteenth Street, 918 Eighteenth Street, and I found a two-room back apartment there, dingy, looking out on some old buildings there, for $70. In this place is a young couple, both of them Government clerks, just a young married couple, and they are trying to educate themselves. They are compelled to pay $70 for the two rooms, kitchenette and bath.

I know of another old couple. This man is just about to retire. He is very old and his wife is an ill woman, and he rents the apartment from this man by the name of Snow, who also is one of the realtors who is willing to help us all so much. This man is under eviction notice and on Friday, I think, he will have to get out. I asked him to come down here and testify, but he said he was afraid; that he was trying to compromise.

Representative BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, are these ex parte statements of what people have told some one else going to be considered as evidence by the committee?

The CHAIRMAN. Most of the statements of the witness have been from her own observation.

Representative BLANTON. I know that, but I mean statements as to what somebody else told somebody else?

Mrs. WORRELL. No; he told me.

Representative HAMMER. Permit me, Mr. Chairman, to call attention to the fact that Mr. Blanton himself called for that kind of testimony on his cross-examination and asked them to give the names. Representative BLANTON. That was in reference to what threats had been made to them, if any; but for someone to tell somebody else that someone else had made a threat about them, I think, is too far removed. Of course, if the committee wants to hear such evidence, I have no objection, but you could not give any probity force to it. A judge sitting on the bench would not consider such evidence. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, the Congressman well knows that in making up the bill due weight will be given to direct evidence, and whatever weight the committee sees fit will be given to hearsay evidence.

Representative BLANTON. If the committee wants to hear it, I have no objection.

Senator COPELAND. What was it the gentleman told you?

Mrs. WORRELL. This old gentleman has been very much worried because he has been under eviction notice and, I think, Friday he is compelled to go into court to defend himself. They have lived there for eight years and he is about to retire and he will only get a very small salary when he does retire-$60. He has his old furniture that he has had for years and years, which is old family furniture, and he told me he didn't know what he could do with it; he didn't want to sell it and he couldn't store it and he didn't want to move. and he didn't want to come down here to testify, because he was going to try to compromise with the landlord in some way.

Senator COPELAND. Did he indicate any fear that his coming here would militate against him?

He

Mrs. WORRELL. Oh, yes; he did. I tried to get him to come and I wish he would. He didn't even want me to give his name. asked me not to, because he was afraid it might injure him with some of the landlords.

I want to say to you, gentlemen, that I am speaking for a great many Government clerks. I talk to them and I know what they think about it. I know a very great many of them are afraid to say anything; and you know it is necessary for our Government to select and employ people of intelligence, culture, and refinement, people from whose ranks have sprung poets, musicians, authors, Congressmen, and benefactors like Clara Barton; persons who know your people and whom your people know, who move in the same social plane as yourselves, and yet people who draw about onefourth the salary that you gentlemen draw; people who would not and could not, think of moving or living in the slum districts; and what is the result? It is that two and sometimes three families have doubled up and are living in an apartment only not large enough for one family: five and six girls are living in crowded and insanitary quarters. Families are endangering their health by living in places unfit for habitation, and still they have not hitherto advised the people at home of the conditions here; but I tell you, gentlemen, it can not longer remain as it is.

I know of another case that was called to my attention to-day. The lady said that their names was Jones and they live at 61 New York Avenue NE., and this family has lived there, I think she said, 10 years. They paid $27 when they went in there. The place has not been fixed and the floor, she said, was entirely rotted out. The man himself put a floor in once, but the cellar or the basement is so damp the floor rotted out, and they are compelled to abandon the first floor and go to the second floor. The wife is an invalid and the man has a very, very meager salary. They lost their child and she says it was on account of the insanitary conditions of that house, and yet he does not seem to be able to find any place to go. Senator JONES. Where are there five or six young girls living in one room?

Mrs. WORRELL. I can not just tell you offhand, but I will try and get you that.

Senator COPELAND. You recited here a list of evils existing. Are all of them within your own knowledge?

Mrs. WORRELL. They have been told to me. I have not seen it. Senator COPELAND. But you have had first-hand information? Mrs. WORRELL. Yes; I have had first-hand information.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of anybody that has been directly threatened with ejection if they came before this committee? Mrs. WORRELL. No; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a current rumor that such is the case. We are very anxious, if that is the case, that somebody will come forward and testify and give us direct evidence that it is true.

Mrs. WORRELL. I called up Mr. Petty this afternoon and I asked him what he could do about the people that were just about to be ejected. I told him I had seen in the papers where he had said that the real estate men could handle this thing if we didn't have a rent commission, and he said, "Yes"; he thought if we didn't have any rent commission they could do something, and I said, "What could you do?" And I think the reply was, "We could throw them out of town," or something to that effect, but anyway, there is somebody here that will testify as to what one of the real estate men said. The CHAIRMAN. I hope they will put some reputable person on the stand that will give us that testimony if it is true. If it is true we want to know it and if it is not true we want to know that. Representative HAMMER. And we want concrete examples. Mrs. WORRELL. They are afraid, I can tell you that.

Representative HAMMER. We ought to be able to find somebody, if that is so, that will give us concrete examples, not one or two, but a number of them.

Mrs. WORRELL. I wish they would come and testify, but they are afraid.

Representative HAMMER. If there are a number of them we ought to be able to get some of them to appear.

Representative BLANTON. Mr. Chairman, I want to submit this to the committee, from a legal standpoint. Until some witness does come here under oath and testify that they have been threatened such threat, the presumption is there has been no such threat made. The CHAIRMAN. That is correct.

Representative HAMMER. We have one case of that sort to-day or I understood we had one to-day.

Representative BLANTON. It did not satisfy me that there was such a threat made.

Representative HAMMER. There are evidently others.

Representative BLANTON. I desire to ask the lady some questions. Mrs. WORREL. May I turn this statement in? This was sent to me. This is a paper that is a copy of an agreement between a landlord and a tenant. This was probably some time ago, but he was compelled to put down $40, which was put down by the lessee of the apartment with the lessor to be held by her as security for the faithful performance of the terms of the lease by the said lessee.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that all evidence you submit here is submitted under oath?

Mrs. WORRELL. Yes; this was sent to me.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not vouch for the truth of it?

Mrs. WORRELL. There is the receipt. The man's receipt is attached to it.

The CHAIRMAN. But they did not make any affidavit to that fact? Mrs. WORRELL. No; that is only for what it may be worth. Representative HAMMER. Is this a copy of the original lease?

Mrs. WORRELL. That is a copy of the lease, but there is a receipt for the $40 attached to the copy of that lease. I think it is the original receipt.

Representative HAMMER. What is the purpose? What do you offer this for?

Mrs. WORRELL. I just offer that because it was sent to me. They required a deposit of $40 to guarantee they would keep the lease. Representative HAMMER. That is a business transaction, and while perhaps it is a violation of the law, it is rather lengthy and unless it is more pertinent than it appears to be, I do not see the importance of putting it in the record.

Mrs. WORRELL. I will leave it with the committee. I do not care about it.

The CHAIRMAN. There are a number of letters and papers that have been filed with the committee and we will go over them later and see whether they should be put in the record.

Representative BLANTON. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I proceed with my examination?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Representative BLANTON. Mrs. Worrell, you have been in this apartment, as I understand it, since 1909?

Mrs. WORRELL. Over nine years. I don't know the date exactly, but I went in right after it was built.

Representative BLANTON. And you were paying $32.50 when you went in?

Mrs. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Representative BLANTON. And you rent was not increased until 1920 ?

Representative BLANTON. And then you paid $46?

Mrs. WORRELL. There were several small increases. I don't remember what they were, but I am paying $48.

Representative BLANTON. You are paying $48. Does that include electricity?

Mrs. WORRELL. No; it does not. The place is dark.

Representative BLANTON. You have not told the committee anything about what it does include. That is what we are interested in. What does the $48 include?

Mrs. WORRELL. That $48 just includes the heat and the light-I don't mean the light-the heat and the water, that is all.

Representative BLANTON. It includes the apartment?

Mrs. WORRELL. Of course.

Representative BLANTON. Of what does it consist?

Mrs. WORRELL. I said it was two rooms, kitchenette, and bath, or kitchen and bath.

Representative BLANTON. It contains two rooms besides the kitchenette and bath?

Mrs. WORRELL. Yes; I think that is a very reasonable rent and proper. I think that is all right.

Representative BLANTON. What sized rooms are they?

Mrs. WORRELL. They are pretty good size. They are reasonable. They are about, I should judge, 14 by 14.

Representative BLANTON. That is a pretty good-sized room.

Mrs. WORRELL. It is just a reasonable sized room.

Representative BLANTON. It is above the average?

Mrs. WORRELL. No; I don't think it is above the average, Mr. Blanton.

Representative BLANTON. Are you a Government employee?
Mrs. WORRELL. I am.

Representative BLANTON. You are working where?

Mrs. WORRELL. I am working in the Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs.

Representative BLANTON. Have you any other member of your family living with you?

Mrs. WORRELL. No, sir; I have not, now, both of my children are married.

Representative BLANTON. You are living by yourself?

Mrs. WORRELL. Both of my children are married and they are not with me.

Representative BLANTON. There is no one with you now whom you have to support?

Mrs. WORRELL. I have no one to support at all; that is, of course,. I do help to support a niece, but she is not with me.

Representative BLANTON. Do you mind telling the committee. whether or not you own an automobile?

Mrs. WORRELL. I do not. I can't afford it. I wish I could. I need one very badly.

Representative BLANTON. They are asking you now $65?
Mrs. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Representative BLANTON. That is just exactly double what you paid when you first went into this apartment years ago?

Mrs. WORRELL. Yes; with every convenience. Now we have no conveniences whatsoever. Our packages are at the mercy of anybody who chooses to pick them up. All the telephone exchanges have been taken out of each one of the courts and put in the south court and the place is not properly kept. They have not put up any of the curtains or anything this fall at all, and we have servants. go up and down on the passenger elevators which should not be.

Representative BLANTON. Now, Mrs. Worrell, I would like to ask you this question for information. I do not know what the facts. are except from hearsay, but, if as a matter of fact, it is a fact, that property in the District of Columbia has doubled in value since. the war or since 1917, then would it be out of place to double rents? Mrs. WORRELL. I do not think property has advanced double. Representative BLANTON. I am just saying that. I am asking you a hypothetical question. If it is a fact, and I do not say it is, but if it is a fact that property values, all property values, have doubled since 1917, then would it be out of place to double rentals? Mrs. WORRELL. I will answer you by saying if they were getting 72 per cent on their investment that would be all right. I do not know whether that would make it double the rent or not, but I think a legitimate investment of 712 per cent or at the most 8 per cent. would be all right; but the apartment where I have lived has been pyramided. They have had I think the last was the eighth or ninth trust-they have had eight trusts I know on that building. Representative BLANTON. I take it we are all against pyramiding: and I take it every one of us would be in favor of stopping that by law and by a very drastic law.