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God, I do believe it and embrace it, so it be with verity, and joined to our head Christ, and such one as Paul speaketh of, saying, Una fides, unus Deus, unum baptisma, One faith, Antiquity. one God, one baptism. And for antiquity, I am also persuaded to be true that Irenæus saith, Quod primum verum', That is first is true. In our religion Christ's faith was first truly taught by Christ himself, by his Apostles, and by many good men that from the beginning did succeed next unto them and for this controversy of the sacrament, I am persuaded that those old writers, which wrote before the controversy and the usurping of the see of Rome, do all agree, if they be well understood, in this truth."
Thedoctrine of the Sacrament not new.
"I am glad to hear," said Master Secretary, "that ye do so well esteem the doctors of the church."
Universality hath a
"Now as for universality, it may have two meanings: one, double un- to understand that to be universal which from the beginning
in all ages hath been allowed; another, to understand universality for the multitude of our age, or of any other singular age."
"No, no," saith Master Secretary, "these three do always agree; and where there is one, there is all the rest.” And here he and I changed many words. And finally, to be short, in this matter we did not agree.
"There was none," quoth Master Fecknam, "before Berengarius, Wickliffe, and Hus, and now in our days Carolostadius and Ecolampadius. And Carolostadius saith, Christ pointeth to his own body, and not to the sacrament, and Melancthon said, Hoc est corpus meum. And Melancthon writeth to one Micronius, (Miconius, said I,) these are like words: Nullam satis gravem rationem invenire possum, propter quam á fide majorum in hac materia dissentiam3. I can find no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the belief of our foreelders."
Thus when he had spoken at length with many other words more, "Sir," said I, "it is certain that other before these have written of this matter; not by the way only, and
[See notes to the Conferences with Latimer. The words referred to are those of Tertullian, not of Irenæus. ED.]
[ Mel. Ep. ad Mycon. apud Ecolampadium, de Euchar. Ed. 1530, p. 58. ED.]
obiter, as do for the most of all the old writers, but even ex professo, and their whole books entreat of it alone, as Bertram."
"Bertram," said the Secretary, "what man was he? and who was he3, and how do ye know?" &c. with many questions.
"Sir," quoth I, "I have read his book. He propoundeth the same which is now in controversy, and answereth so directly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that the substance of bread remaineth still in the sacrament; and he wrote unto Carolus Magnus."
"Marry," quoth he, "mark, for there is a matter. He wrote," quoth he, "ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no author maketh any such mention of Bertramus."
"Yes," quoth I, "Trithemius in catalogo illustrium Scriptorum speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late time: but he speaketh," quoth I, "of them that were of antiquity." Here after much talk of Bertram; "What authors have ye," quoth Mr Secretary, "to make of the Sacrament a figure?"
[3 "Who was he?" etc. The celebrated work of Bertramus, or Ratramnus, de Corpore et Sanguine Domini, is here alluded to. An English translation by William Hugh had shortly before this time, viz. in 1548, been printed, under the title of "A book of Bertram the Priest." It is supposed that Ridley met with it in the year 1545 or 1546. Dr Gloucester Ridley says: "Few books have drawn after them such salutary consequences as this has done. This first opened Ridley's eyes, and determined him more accurately to search the Scriptures in this article, and the doctrine of the primitive fathers, who lived before the time of this controversy betwixt Bertram and Paschasius." ED.]
["Ad Henricum." "That is," says Dr Wordsworth, "to Henry the Eighth: meaning to insinuate that this book of Bertram's, which bore too strongly against the Romish corruptions in the doctrine of the Eucharist, to admit easily of any fair and direct answer, was a modern forgery of the Protestants of late time." The work of John of Trithemius was finished A.D. 1494, and first published at Basil. Ridley was under a mistake as to the precise date of the work in question; it was addressed not to Charlemagne, but to Charles the Bald: it was besides not the "Catalogus illustrium virorum," but the "Catalogus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum," to which he refers; that work states of Bertram, "ad Carolum regem, fratrem Lotharii imperatoris, scripsit commendabile opus." ED.]
nus, Gelasius, Ori
but a figure.
"Sir," quoth I, "ye know (I think) that Tertullian in plain Sacrament words speaketh thus: Hoc est corpus meum, id est, figura corporis mei; This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body. And Gelasius saith plainly, that substantia panis manet; the substance of bread remaineth. And Origen saith likewise; Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum et vadit in secessem; That which is sanctified, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away in the draught'." This when I had Englished, Mr Secretary said to me, "You know very well as any man," &c.; and here, if I would, I might have been set in a foolish Paradise of his commendation of my learning, and quod essem vir multæ lectionis, a man of much reading. But this I would not take at his hand. He set me not up so high, but I brought myself as low again: and here was much ado.
Catechuineni and others went out th
"As for Melancthon," quoth I, "whom Mr Fecknam spake of, I marvel that ye will allege him; for we are more nigh an agreement here in England, than the opinion of Melancthon to you: for in this point we all agree here, that there is in the sacrament but one material substance; and Melancthon, as I ween, saith there are two."
"Ye say truth," quoth Mr Secretary: "Melancthon's opinion is so. But I pray you, ye have read that the sacrament was in old time so reverenced, that many were then forbidden to be present at the ministration thereof, catechumeni," quoth he, "and many more."
"Truth, Sir," quoth I, "there were some called audientes, some pœnitentes, some catechumeni, and some energumeni, which were commanded to depart."
"Now," quoth he, "and how can ye then make but a figure or a sign of the sacrament, as that book which is set forth in my Lord of Canterbury's name?? I wis, ye can tell
[Tertul. cont. Marcion. lib. rv. cap. 40. Christo. Bibl. Pat. Paris, 1575, vol. v. p. 475. Par. 1745, Hom. xI. vol. iii. p. 499. For these see The Brief Declaration. ED.]
[2 "Lord of Canterbury's name." Fox, in the margin, calls this 'the book of Catechism,' by which he probably meant either the Catechism commonly called the Catechism of King Edward, or the "Short Instruction unto Christian Religion:" or possibly that of Justus Jonas, translated under Cranmer's authority, and often referred to as his.
Gelasius de duab. nat. in Orig. in Matth. Op. Ed. references to the Fathers
who made it did not ye make it?" And here was much murmuring of the rest, as though they would have given me the glory of the writing of that book; which yet was said of some there, to contain most heinous heresy that ever
"Master Secretary," quoth I, "that book was made of a great learned man, and him which is able to do the like again: as for me, I ensure you (be not deceived in me) I was never able to do or write any such like thing. He passeth me no less, than the learned master his young scholar."
Now, here every man would have his saying, which I pass over as not much material for to tell. But, Sir," quoth I, "methinks it is not charitably done, to bear the people in hand that any man doth so lightly esteem the sacrament, as to make of it but a figure. For that maketh it (but) a bare figure without any more profit; which that book doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most plainly."
"Yes," quoth he, "that they do."
"Sir, no," quoth I, "of a truth: and as for me, I ensure you I make no less of the sacrament than thus: I say, whosoever receiveth the sacrament, he receiveth therewith life or death."
"No," quoth Mr Secretary, "Scripture saith not so."
"Sir," quoth I, "although not in the same sound of words, yet it doth in the same sense; and St Augustine saith in the sound of words also: for Paul saith, The bread which 1 Cor. x. 16. we break, is it not the partaking or fellowship of the body of Christ? and St Augustine, Manduca vitam, bibe vitam, Eat life, drink life"."
Then said Master Pope, “What can ye make of it when The Sacraye say, there is not the real body of Christ? which believe, and I pray God I may never believe other.
ment may bring life without transubstantiation.
It is known by the title "Catechism of 1543." But it is more likely that Ridley referred to the Book on the Sacrament, which Cranmer afterwards defended against Gardiner, and that Fox was wrong in mentioning a catechism at all. ED.]
[S. Aug. Sermo cxxxi. de verb. Evan. Joh. vi. Op. Ed. Ben. Par. 1685, tom. v. col. 641. ED.]
Dr Ridley falsely re
for a sermon of his at Paul's.
can it bring (as ye say) either life or death, when Christ's body is not there?"
Sir," quoth I, "when you hear God's word truly preached, if ye do believe it and abide in it, ye shall and do receive life withal: and if ye do not believe it, it doth bring unto you death: and yet Christ's body is still in heaven, and not carnal in every preacher's mouth.”
"I pray you tell me," quoth he, "how can you answer to this, Quod pro vobis tradetur, Which shall be given for you? Was the figure of Christ's body given for us?"
"No, Sir," quoth I, "but the very body itself, whereof the sacrament is a sacramental figure.”
"How say ye then," quoth he, "to quod pro vobis tradetur, Which shall be given for you?"
"Forsooth," quoth I, "Tertullian's exposition maketh it plain, for he saith, Corpus est figura corporis, The body is a figure of the body. Now put to quod pro vobis tradetur, Which shall be given for you; and it agreeth exceedingly well."
"In faith," quoth he, "I would give forty pounds that ye were of a good opinion. For I ensure you, I have heard you, and had an affection to you."
"I thank you, Master Pope, for your heart and mind: and ye know," quoth I, "I were a very fool if I would in this matter dissent from you, if that in my conscience the truth did not enforce me so to do. For I wis (as ye do perceive, I trow) it is somewhat out of my way, if I would esteem worldly gain."
"What say ye," quoth he, "to Cyprian? Doth he not say plainly, Panis quem dedit Dominus, non effigie, sed natura mutatus, omnipotentia verbi factus est caro: The bread which the Lord did deliver, being changed not according to the form, but according to the nature thereof, by the omnipotent word is made flesh."
"True, Sir, so he doth say, and I answer even the same which once by chance I preached at Paul's Cross in a sermon, for the which I have been as unjustly and as untruly reported,
[ Cyp. de Coena Domini. Op. Ed. Ben. Par. 1726, col. 111. This treatise is placed by the Benedictine Editor at the end of the volume among those falsely attributed to Cyprian. ED.]