Mr. DIFENDERFER. I simply ask that because it might explain away why the Electrical Development Co. does not ship or transmit power to this company.

Gen. GREENE. I think they do not. I answer you absolutely that they are not interested to a dollar in our company, and there is no arrangement with them that they shall bring power to this company. Mr. DIFENDERFER. Why is it that the Mackenzie-Mann interests do not bring their electricity to this company?

Gen. GREENE. Because it costs an enormous amount of money to build transmission lines and because we have not paid dividends for six years they probably think it does not pay.

Mr. COOPER. Is there not a very rapid industrial development going on in Canada?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. COOPER. And is it not very probable that Canada will get all of this?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

A MEMBER. General, do you believe that this additional transmission into this country will materially diminish the price?

Gen. GREENE. No, sir.

A MEMBER. There would be no benefit in anybody taking the power?

Gen. GREENE. No; because the price at which the power is sold is very much less than the price of steam power, and that allows the trolley lines to extend their tracks to points they could not otherwise reach.

Mr. FLOOD. What is the difference in price between steam power and electric power?

Gen. GREENE. Steam power comes somewhere between forty and fifty dollars per horsepower, and yet we sell in the vicinity of the power plant at twelve fifty. At Lockport we sell at sixteen; and at Syracuse we sell at thirty.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. How much at Rochester?

Gen. GREENE. Twenty-five. In any event, we are a quarter or a third below the price of steam power.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. How do you account for your ability to sell it in Rochester for 25 when the charge in Buffalo is 29?

Gen. GREENE. I can not give you any answer in regard to the prices in Buffalo, because I do not know their business.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, when this treaty was framed between this country and Canada-you and I are both laymen on this proposition; I am not a lawyer and you are not a lawyer-who was it that suggested the 36.000 cubic feet per second in Canada and the 20,000 for the American side?

Gen. GREENE. As I understand that, it was made by the International Waterways Commission at the request of the Secretary of State, who was negotiating the treaty.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Do you know whether or not any suggestions came from these power companies?

Gen. GREENE. Some were made, but they were not considered. They were informed by the Secretary of State that he would get his own information from the Government authorities.

Mr. FLOOD. Did not the suggestion rather come from Canada?

Gen. GREENE. Well, I have never seen the minutes of the meetings between Mr. Bryce and Mr. Root.

Mr. GARNER. General, do I understand you correctly when you say that these 36,000 cubic feet were awarded to Canada and 20,000 to the United States at the suggestion of the International Waterways Commission?

Ġen. GREENE. In response to the request of the Secretary of State for information.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Who gave that information?

Mr. GARNER. The engineering board.

Gen. GREENE. The International Waterways Commission of that time. You will find reports in the back history of this matter in the investigation of 1906.

A MEMBER. March 19, 1906.

Gen. GREENE. You will see that figures up. March 19, 1906, International Waterways Commission, and here is their signed recommendation.

Mr. SHARP. General, are you familiar with the reasons why this discrimination was made?

Gen. GREENE. I understand that the reason why the United States was allotted 20,000 feet is that about 90 per cent of the Falls is on Canadian territory.

Mr. SHARP. That is what I thought.

Gen. GREENE. The boundary line is not in the center of the stream, but runs through the thin water near Goat Island, and the report of the engineers is that only 5 per cent goes over the American Falls and perhaps 2 or 3 per cent over the American side of the Canadian Falls; so that less than 10 per cent of the water of Niagara Falls is on the territory of the United States.

Mr. KENDALL. Where do you say that boundary line is?
Gen. GREENE. At Terrapin Point.

Mr. SHARP. Another reason I heard is that the supposed loss of the drainage canal at Chicago

Gen. GREENE. Oh, that always appears; 10,000 feet at Chicago. Mr. SHARP. Are you acquainted with the operations of the Shewinnegan Power Co.?

Gen. GREENE. I visited it once.

Mr. SHARP. Do you know what rate they are getting for their power?

Gen. GREENE. No; I do not.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. General, the Ontario Power Co. is a corporation?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And it is a power-distributing company?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And you are the vice president?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. So that your association with the Ontario Power Co. would be very intimate?"

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, the Niagara, Lockport & Ontario Power Co. is the company that distributes the power created by the Ontario Power Co.?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. It is the distributing company?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And you take this product at the center of the river?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then, you must have information as to what it costs to deliver it to the center of the Niagara River?

Gen. GREENE. I have previously answered that question.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And you say that the MacKenzie-Mann Co., which is the Electrical Development Co., could not afford to bring it into the United States?

Gen. GREENE. I have made that statement.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. How do you dovetail the two that you can afford as a member of these companies to bring this power to this side and distribute it to Rochester, and so on, and yet you say the MacKenzie-Mann Co. can not bring it here to Buffalo?

Gen. GREENE. I did not say anything about Buffalo. Of course, if there are any representatives of the MacKenzie-Mann interests here they can speak better than I can, but if they are not, I would say that I would not ask capitalists to put seven or eight million dollars into a second transmission company to use their power in New York, because it would not produce any return.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, then, it would be practically impossible to expect that company to deliver any electricity in Detroit under those circumstances, would it not?

Gen. GREENE. The MacKenzie-Mann Co.?

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Yes.

Gen. GREENE. I don't understand

Mr. DIFENDERFER. I am just taking a hypothesis.

Gen. GREENE. I should not expect to make any money by going to Detroit.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And you rather an acute business man; you have the reputation of being a rather acute business man?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir. Laughter.]

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, the MacKenzie-Mann Co. is

Gen. GREENE. They are rather acute, too.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. If they are not able to do it, it is quite evident that no other company will ever, within our lifetime, supply Detroit, or even Windsor?

Gen. GREENE. Now, when you talk about your lifetime, I don't know your expectation of life

Mr. DIFENDERFER. About three or four years. [Laughter.]

Gen. GREENE. But what is possible in electricity in 15 years that no man can say. It was about 15 years ago that they said we could not take the power to Buffalo; now we run cars by it in Oswego. Mr. DIFENDERFER. What do you sell it for in Oswego?

Gen. GREENE. The Syracuse lines run from Syracuse to Oswego. Detroit is about 225 miles away. Before the hydroelectric-power commission was formed we considered the idea of going to Detroit, but we could not agree with the people of Detroit on the price; we could not see, from the price they were willing to pay, that it would be a successful commercial venture. Now, the hydroelectric commission distributing at cost is another proposition. They have figured the distance to Buffalo to be 225 miles. Now, I don't want to take

up the time of this committee, but this matter of transmission depends on the transmission of voltage; and voltage, in electricity, is practically synonymous with pressure.

Now, when the Niagara Falls Co. took their power to Buffalo some 10 or 12 years ago the highest voltage they could get was 11,000; that was in 1896, 16 years ago. I think there was a great deal of doubt whether it was going to be a success, and it was a success. We came along in 1906 and we went to 60,000. The hydroelectric power commission is using 110,000. Now, as I understand it, the distance you can take it is approximately proportionate to the pressure, and that depends upon getting an insulator which will hold the current.

Mr. FLOOD. With 110,000, how far can you carry the current?

Gen. GREENE. I should say 200 miles, or even more, but there is a loss, and the steam plants are every year improving in efficiency. Mr. COOPER. General, do you know anything about the development of crude oil-that there are a great many manufacturers who claim to-day that they can make power cheaper than you can sell it?

Gen. GREENE. Yes; I know they claim it, but at what price?

Mr. COOPER. That is, the price which you sell it at. We claim that we can make power with our oil engines cheaper than we could buy it from you if you were located in Buffalo.

Gen. GREENE. I don't doubt that, because there has been a very remarkable development in crude-oil engines.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, at a distance far remote from your plant, I would state that at the Pardee mine they have an immense amount of power that can be used (and I am not informed that they are unable to supply it) a great deal more cheaply than the people are selling it to-day.

Gen. GREENE. I understand that a hydroelectric plant is being constructed at Scranton

Mr. DIFENDERFER. This is the Pardee-Areo plant that I am talking about, and they claim that for the next 50 years they can supply electricity without any perceptible decrease.

Gen. GREENE. New York is not blessed with culm banks.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. No; but I say they are getting their culm as cheap as you are getting your water.

Gen. GREENE. Yes.

A MEMBER. Is there any other company that transmits power into this country except your company?

Gen. GREENE. Not beyond Buffalo.

A MEMBER. The Electrical Development Co. is not a transmission company?

Gen. GREENE. They have no transmission lines in the United. States.

Mr. GARNER. If Congress, acting for the United States, should decide that to use the 4,400 feet additional would not affect the scenic beauty of the Falls, and that it was advisable to permit Canada to import power into the United States, would not the whole question be solved as to the construction of the works and the charges, if we should provide that everything should be done under the Secretary of War?

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Gen. GREENE. What are the limits of his supervision?

Mr. GARNER. Limits as to the conditions precedent and the establishment of plants in the United States and the prices to be charged for the power imported.

Gen. GREENE. I do not know about the machinery.

Mr. GARNER. Well, Congress could furnish him with machinery, and it is supposed that the engineering department is the best body to determine the cost of production.

Gen. GREENE. I was an officer of engineers for 20 years; I would not dispute that statement.

Mr. GARNER. Yes; but I am saying that the Engineer Department is the best organization to determine the price.

Gen. GREENE. I do not think that the cost or price is a matter that has often come to them as engineers. As to the commercial questions as to what returns are fair on an investment of capital, I do not think they are experts.

Mr. COOPER. General, in answer to a question I asked you, you gave as your answer, did you not, that the up-State public utilities commission would claim that it would be an infringement of their rights in New York if Congress undertook to fix the rates!

Gen. GREENE. Well, I would say that there would be two bodies with the same powers; but what action the State of New York would take under those circumstances it is not for me to say. I say that here is a commission that for five years has done that work and done it very satisfactorily. Now, if you create a United States agency to do that work you have two bodies doing the same thing in the State of New York.

Mr. COOPER. You agree to what seems to be Mr. Garner's idea (and it is mine, too) that Congress should delegate to the Engineer Department the means by which this power is to be diverted? That is, that they should get the maximum results?

Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir; there is no one who can determine better than they how the works should be constructed.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then they have the power to discriminate in the prices the New York Public Service Commission? Have they the right to discriminate as between localities?

Gen. GREENE. They have the right to discriminate between localities, certainly. The price is not the same between 10 miles away and 200 miles away.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then do you not think they have discriminated in the prices charged at Buffalo and at Lockport?

Gen. GREENE. They have never investigated it, but they are going to do it now.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Here you have something like sixty or sixty two million dollars of invested capital. The law says that if 100 people think the prices are unreasonable the commission shall investigate and determine the fact. That acts something like the recall, does it not? Gen. GREENE. Yes, sir. [Laughter.]

I say I do not think you can ask that one man should have the power to say anything involving such large interests

Mr. DIFENDERFER. One man should have that power. One man should be permitted to set a precedent for the rest in a decision from that board.