Mr. COHN. The 4,400 feet, let me explain, comes from the same place that any diversion would come from on the Canadian side, and it is perfectly absurd to allow the Canadians to develop to the extent of 36,000 feet and say that the Americans shall not take 20,000 feet. Mr. GARNER. That is the point I am glad you brought out.

Mr. COHN. It all practically comes from the Canadian side. There is no report of any engineer which says that any diversion on the Canadian side affects the American Falls. Now, the water at the apex of the Falls is nearly 18 feet deep. Who could look at it and tell whether it was 10 feet deep or 8?

Mr. COOPER. There is a black rock

Mr. CоHN. That has always been so.

Mr. COOPER. The point is, how far can you go? The only question is how far can you go?

Mr. COHN. That is the point; the people of Niagara Falls are just as anxious to preserve the scenic beauty of the Falls as anybody else. There are many people who are dependent on the traffic caused by the tourists coming, and yet favor this legislation. I have in mind the Gorge Railroad, which was represented here day before. yesterday. There is no one who understands the situation who says the Falls are going to be ruined if this additional diversion is permitted.

Mr. GARNER. Well, you do appreciate the caution?

Mr. COHN. I think that is proper. This matter has been before. Congress for a number of years, and I think it has been very cautious. Mr. DIFENDERFER. To whom do you furnish this power? Do you sell any of it directly to the consumer in the city of Buffalo?

Mr. COHN. No, sir; we do not transmit any of it outside of Niagara Falls. It is only used for the immediate market.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. You do not furnish any power to any other transmitting company?

Mr. COHN. Not in the city of Buffalo. Just in the city of Niagara Falls; we just sell it to distributing companies in the city.

Mr. LEGARE. I see here article 5 goes on to say:

It is the desire of both parties to accomplish this object with the least possible injury to investments which have already been made in the construction of power plants on the American side of the river, and on the Canadian side of the river in the Province of Ontario.

Have you given any thought to that part of the treaty, as to any legislation we may pass as to limitation of importation of power from Canada into the United States? Do you catch my idea? Mr. CоHN. I do not.

Mr. GARNER. I understand that the law of Canada is to the effect that you can only import one-half of the power created over there— so that they have to make laws protecting their interests?

Mr. Coin. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEGARE. Yes; but suppose we should pass some law prohibiting that, wouldn't it be in conflict with this treaty?

Mr. COHN. Your point is that if we continue this prohibition we are running contrary to the treaty?

Mr. LEGARE. That seems so to me.

Mr. Conn. You will excuse me from talking about prohibition of importation. That is for the other fellows to talk about. I am not interested in the question of importation from Canada, because the

more that is imported the more it comes into competition with us. I am not quite through. I just want to say that in Gen. Greene's printed statement here, on page 8, he gives conditions on the Canadian side and conditions on the American side. On the American side he gives the actual development, and on the Canadian side he gives the authorized development. He says, "The hydraulic company is authorized to develop 120,000 horsepower," but that statement is not exactly as I understand the facts to be.

Gen. GREENE. That was what I understood you to create. That was 120,000 to 130,000 horsepower. That's the impression I intended to convey, but possibly I have conveyed a wrong impression. That is what you have produced.

Mr. COHN. You will find that any request to our company that has been made by the government officers or the scenic preservation committee has been made promptly and satisfactorily honored. Mr. COOPER. What is the plan of the establishments using your power?

Mr. COHN. Oh, we sell power to the Wm. A. Rogers Co., silver platers; to the Carter-Crume Co., which makes check books; the Electro-Metallurgical Co.; the United States Light & Heating Co., which makes batteries-there are about 60 customers.

Mr. COOPER. How many of those are 24-hour companies? Mr. COHN. Practically all of them-all the large users. If they can use the power 24 hours a day that makes it economical. Some of those plants could never have been established without the 24-hour service. Now, as to this point about the peak of the load, that has been mentioned. The language of the treaty, which is in the Smith bill, is intended to cover the larger use between the hours of 6 and 8 o'clock in the evening, when railway and lighting service is heaviest, but Mr. Barton can speak better than I can on that.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. What is the minimum charge to those 24-hour plants?

Mr. COHN. I don't know that I am fully acquainted with that except as to some contracts I have drawn in late years. It varies according to the manner of its use. If they take on the kilowatt-hour basis, that is one rate; if it is taken for 10 years, that is another rate; and if it is taken in horsepower quantities, that is another rate.

Now, the public-service commission of the State of New York had a meeting at Albany the other day in which it was decided that the electrical companies shall file rates the same as railroad companies. Mr. DIFENDERFER. Could you give us the minimum charge on the horsepower basis?

Mr. COнN. About $16 to manufacturers.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then there is a maximum rate?

Mr. COHN. I don't think I have drawn any contracts higher than $16 or $18. Perhaps I had better be entirely frank and say that there are one or two companies using large amounts that have a substantially lower rate. Now, the public-service commission is going to compel us to file rates the same as railroads.

Mr. GARNER. The power companies then are entirely satisfied with the commission and with its workings, up to date?

Mr. COнN. They have got to be. [Laughter.]

Mr. DIFENDERFER. And you are entirely satisfied with the rates laid down?

Mr. COHN. Well, we are not kicking about that. Those who are in favor of bankrupt corporations have different views from ours. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cohn, if you have any data that you desire to submit as a part of your remarks, you may submit them.

Mr. COHN. Not at all. We want some legislation and that is all. The CHAIRMAN. In regard to the disposition of the 4,400 feet of additional water, do you think the power should be lodged in the Secretary of War or in the public service commission of the State of New York?

Mr. COHN. I think that we ought to have it. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but who should dispose of it?
Mr. COHN. I haven't any choice or any views.
ought to have it anyway.

We think that we

Å MEMBER. You would not advise Congress to legislate that you should have it?

Mr. COHN. I don't think that. I stated a year ago that we should have it.

The CHAIRMAN. But if you can not have it, you are willing that somebody else should?

Mr. COHN. I say it would be very unfair on the part of Congress to legislate for navigation or national defense, or even for the benefit of scenic beauty, and under guise of such purpose attempt to take away from us what is ours at common law, and turn it over to someone else.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think a commission should be created to establish rates?

Mr. COHN. Well, we have one in New York.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think it is a good idea to sell to a 20,000horsepower consumer at a less rate?

Mr. COHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. COOPER. Why, he could manufacture his gas for less?

Mr. COHN. I don't think there is any competition in that business. Mr. COOPER. Not there; that is one of the reasons. [Laughter.] That is exactly what was the trouble with railroad rebates. The great big fellow drove the other fellow out of business any time he wanted to.

Mr. COHN. That certainly is rectified for the few by the publicservice commission of the State of New York; but if a man comes to us and says: "Here, I want to buy power," it has been a question of individual bargaining.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Cohn. We will now hear from Mr. A. C. Morrison, of Chicago.

STATEMENT OF MR. A. C. MORRISON.

Mr. MORRISON. I represent the Union Carbide Co., of Niagara Falls. I am neither engineer nor lawyer, but my company is a user of the power at the Falls and has been a rapidly developing user of power there. I can not speak for the electric-furnace industry as a whole, but I think it is fair that I be allowed to bring before this committee a general picture of the electric-furnace industry, especially as I believe that my company is the largest user of power at Niagara Falls, which is the center of electric-furnace development in this country. We have developed in the last few years very rap