I come from the city of Buffalo, and you all know that the city of Buffalo is located about 22 miles from Niagara Falls; and the people there and in the surrounding country have but two objects in view, and that is to get more power and cheaper power, and I think that they should have cheaper power rates. I listened to my colleague and I think he has made a very fair statement.

Mr. KENDALL. Have the people no concern about the preservation of the Falls?

Mr. DRISCOLL. As far as the preservation of the Falls is concerned, the question before your committee is whether or not the diversion of the 4,400 cubic feet of water per second that is allowed under this treaty, and which is not at present being used, will in any way harm the scenic beauty of Niagara Falls. In my judgment, not in the slightest degree.

The CHAIRMAN. The treaty provides for 56,000 cubic feet per second.

Mr. DRISCOLL. We have no jurisdiction over that. All we have jurisdiction over would be the 15,600 cubic feet per second that is now being used and the 4,400 feet additional that is not being used. Mr. COOPER. How much would it be in the aggregate?

Mr. DRISCOLL. Twenty thousand on the American side. The limitations that have been placed upon the waters of Niagara River should be released. That is, I do not believe that it was the intention of the law to control the waters below Niagara Falls, where I understand there is a drop of some eighty odd feet. If that water should be used for power purposes in the lower Niagara it would be a great benefit to the people, and it would not impair in any way the scenic beauty of Niagara Falls. I do say, gentlemen, that when your committee present the bill it should, in my judgment, be one so perfect that it would not be necessary for Congress to cross a "t" or dot an "i" in its amendment.

The CHAIRMAN. How can we do that? I wish the gentleman would state. It would be gratifying to us.

Mr. DRISCOLL. I am going to leave that to the chairman and the gentlemen of the committee. I know that it is a very difficult proposition. I fully agree with Mr. Simmons that this is one of the greatest questions that will ever come before this committee affecting power regulation. I believe there should be some law in this country regulating the maximum and minimum cost of power. We have been told that there is 160,000 horsepower coming in from Canada. I can not find any reason why we should not have more power if we have the market to develop it.

Mr. FLOOD. But do you think that the price to the consumer should be limited?

Mr. DRISCOLL. Absolutely. I thank you, gentlemen, very kindly. There are several gentlemen here, including representatives of the chamber of commerce of the city of Buffalo. They have been spending a good deal of time here and I hope they will be heard.

Mr. SIMMONS. I would just like to ask one question. Do you think the public-service commission would safeguard that proposition in the city of New York?

Mr. DRISCOLL. That I can not answer, gentlemen; that is quite another proposition.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now hear from Representative Doremus, of Michigan.

Mr. DOREMUS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of this committee, I think you all understand that perhaps no city is more deeply interested in this question than Detroit. We have pending at the present time a street car settlement that will be voted on by the people next Tuesday. That settlement carries with it the question of embarking in the municipal ownership of street railways. If they decide to operate the street railway system now or at a later period they might be interested in getting this cheaper power. We have in Detroit a municipal lighting plant

Mr. LEVY. What is the distance from Detroit to Niagara?

Mr. DOREMUS. I do not know, but I would say, offhand, 300 miles. A MEMBER. Two hundred and twenty-five.

Mr. DOREMUS. The constitution of the State of Michigan gives the city the power to engage in private lighting. There again you will see the interest which the people of Detroit have in this proposition. Our manufacturers would like to get cheaper power and the citizens of Detroit would naturally like to get cheaper lighting. Under the Burton Act, as I understand it, it is absolutely impossible for them to get this power from Niagara Falls. A private corporation has a contract at this time for 25,000 horsepower with the hydroelectric commission of Canada, but Mr. Monaghan, who is to appear before this committee, is on his way here now, and he will tell you about that. I understand his train has been delayed, but he will be here some time this forenoon. While we are deeply interested and want to utilize a portion of this power, we are also interested in seeing some sort of regulation over the prices charged the consumers in Detroit. I do not think it should be left in the power of any corporation to exact exorbitant prices from the people of Detroit or any other city. I merely wish to make a suggestion. I think this is a matter over which the Federal Government has exclusive control. Certainly if we have the right to exclude this power from Canada entirely, we have the right to regulate the price; and it occurred to me that it might be a good idea to place this entire matter in the hands of the Interstate Commerce Commission. They could have the same authority over these rates that they exercise over the railroad. rates. I think that will be satisfactory to the people of Detroit. So, in brief, we are interested in being in a position to import this power, and also to safeguard the citizens of Detroit who may use it. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, the city of Detroit has a municipal lighting plant and a contract with the Ontario Power Co. to furnish power, etc.?

Mr. BRISTOL., No; that is the hydroelectric commission. Mr. Monaghan represents that.

The CHAIRMAN. And this company intends to sell the power to the city?

Mr. DOREMUS. They have a contract to sell 25,000 horsepower, and they intend now to extend the power to Windsor. I am assuming, gentlemen, that the treaty between this country and Great Britain accomplishes the purposes for which it was made and that it does amply protect the scenic beauty of the Falls.

Á MEMBER. What is the nearest place to Detroit?

Mr. DOREMUS. I am not prepared to answer that. I should have mentioned it, Mr. Chairman, but we have no public-service com

mission in Michigan with power to regulate prices charged the consumers of light and power.

Mr. SHARP. Do you think it would be competent for Congress to confer jurisdiction upon the Interstate Commerce Commission to determine the reasonableness of rates on power transmitted from Canada into this country?

Mr. DOREMUS. I do not think there is any question about it, under our constitutional power, to regulate commerce between the States and foreign countries.

Mr. FLOOD. I notice in the Smith bill a provision that no charge shall be made to individuals or municipalities greater than in Canada. What do you think of that?

Mr. DOREMUS. I do not how that would operate in practice. The object of the Canadian Government is to furnish power from the Falls to Canadian cities at actual cost. Now, if this power is to be used in Detroit through a private corporation it would be entitled to a fair return on the capital invested, which, of course, it could not. obtain if required to furnish the power at cost.

Mr. COOPER. Where can we get the specific information?

Mr. DOREMUS. I think from the hydroelectric commission of Canada.

Mr. COOPER. I mean, is there any official document in this country that will give us that information?

Mr. DOREMUS. I do not know.

Mr. FLOOD. You think, then, Mr. Doremus. it will take some more legislation than that indicated in the Smith bill?

Mr. DOREMUS. Why, I judge that ought to be changed in some degree, although I have not given that particular feature much consideration. But I do think there should be some legislation, and the rates should be under the control of the Federal Government.

Mr. CURLEY. I was going to ask you if you could state the difference in prices between the manufacturers of electric light in Detroit and that which would be made in consequence of this lighting scheme?

Mr. DOREMUS. The only thing I can say is what Mr. Monaghan said, that they could furnish it for 20 per cent less than is now charged.

Mr. CURLEY. Would the private operating companies that are now doing the work in Detroit find it advisable to continue it at 20 per cent of the present rate?

Mr. DOREMUS. Well, I do not think that they would be driven out of business.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now hear from Mr. George P. Sawyer, chairman of the committee representing the Chamber of Commerce of the city of Buffalo.

Mr. GEORGE P. SAWYER. The chamber of commerce in the city of Buffalo has thought it worth while to send a committee here, consisting of myself and my two colleagues, in order to say to you gentlemen that there is a very exigent demand in the city of Buffalo and in western New York for an increased amount of power. From the time of the Pan American Exposition, 10 years ago, we have called curselves the "Electrical City." Our plans, our investments, our development, have been based upon the benefit of Niagara Falls power. We now get from the Niagara Falls, through its distributor, an

average of about 160,000 horsepower. Another company only skirts the boundaries of it. Our sovereign neighbor, the city of Lackawanna, where one of the largest steel companies is located, is a large consumer of power and practically a part of the city of Buffalo. There is a consumption by this secondary company of perhaps twenty or thirty thousand horsepower, so that we use, maybe, a hundred thousand horsepower there.

Mr. FLOOD. Who do you get this power from?

Mr. SAWYER. The Niagara, Lockport & Ontario Power Co. distributes to Lockport and the Ontario Power Co. distributes in the city of Buffalo. The Niagara Falls Power Co. is a growing company. Mr. FLOOD. How much do you get from that?

Mr. SAWYER. The entire amount? I heard some of that comes from Canada; but while gentlemen representing these companies are here they can tell you better than I can. I am speaking now of matters that are well known and which are matters of common knowledge. The Canadian Niagara Power Co. is practically owned by the same people who make up the American Niagara Power Co., and they report in their permit about 150,000 horsepower.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. That is, about 150,000 that they are permitted to bring into this country?

Mr. SAWYER. That is all that this company can bring.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. How much of that is being brought into the United States under the treaty?

Mr. SAWYER. All of it.

Mr. COOPER. Who issues this permit? Is it by virtue of a treaty or a law, or what?

Mr. SAWYER. The treaty has amended the Burton Act; but of course, while I am very anxious not to venture upon subjects that can be better treated by other men-the amount is not strictly limited because the companies have the power-they have limited the power that they can import, but just in what way I do not know. You can get that from the power companies. But we will get about a hundred thousand horsepower if, as Buffalo asks you to do, you give us the treaty-the treaty which is the supreme law of the land—or, we think, should be-and which was negotiated after two years, when every circumstance bearing upon the matter was brought up to a highly skilled and trained body. Since then, by means which seem to me to be unfortunate-but I am not here, gentlemen, to make a speech or to be lengthy; I want to bring my remarks to a close.

On February 16, 1911, the Chamber of Commerce of Buffalo sent a telegram to Senator Root. At that time the act was pending.. The telegram stated that the Chamber of Commerce of Buffalo desired most earnestly, the extension of the Burton bill for a further period of five years, and asked for a public hearing at which to present their views, asking his leadership in placing the bill in his hands. This was signed by the president of the chamber of commerce. That was answered by a telegram from Senator Root saying that public hearings were not arranged for, and then another long and very emphatic telegram was sent. This was in February, 1911. I hold in my hands a resolution appointing this commitee, and asking, among other things, the increased amount of power.

Now, gentlemen, that fixes my official status; and I can say, without power to represent technically, without any authority except that

covered by the Chamber of Commerce of Buffalo with its 3,500 members, that from Dunkirk to Syracuse, in the middle of the State, this same prayer goes up to you. The street cars in Syracuse are run by Niagara power. Rochester, Auburn, and many other places-a dozen-have their public utilities operated by this power, and they all want more. These two companies-one in Buffalo and one in the immediate vicinity of Buffalo-can take on to-day a new customer who wants more than 2,000 horsepower; but they must reserve that for the man who has taken 20,000 horsepower. As his business increases he must have more and more. We are now at a power famine. This treaty has been negotiated, and yet it has been obstructed, and we have come to pray that it be no longer obstructed. Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then, your principal concern is that more power be created for the purpose of consumption by people who need it in your city of Buffalo?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. That is your principal contention. Then, if that is true, is it not just as necessary to your people that it should be transmitted more cheaply?

Mr. SAWYER. Just so.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then, would it not be better for a commission to regulate that?

Mr. SAWYER. I hesitate to answer that. I am a layman in this matter. I do know that there is nothing so complex or difficult as computations about electrical power. It is not like ale, which you can measure by the drink or pint or quart or by the gallon. There are gentlemen who are producing large amounts of power who say they can produce it just as well by steam. Mr. Frank Henry, of the Washburn Mills, told me the other day that he could make it just as cheaply making it in the city of Buffalo; and yet there are people who can tell you that electrical power does not cost half the amount that steam costs.

Mr. LEVY. I understood you to say that there is a practical power famine?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEVY. And that to do justice to the people of Buffalo and vicinity and a large part of New York, it is necessary that the Falls may be made to yield more electric power. Is that so?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, we should import what we can under the treaty; yes, sir.

Mr. LEVY. Yes. Now, then, when that limit is reached there will be large plants, and won't there be another famine?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, sir, that I can not answer.

Mr. LEVY. And then won't there be another famine?

Mr. SHARP. A demand for the abrogation of the treaty?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, the treaty exists. When you come to move as large a party as the United States Government, plus the Government of Great Britain, why, that thing will have to be met by a future generation.

Mr. LEVY. If they should invent a storage battery that is as useful-and that is practically possible-there is no reason why they should not store up power during the night?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir; enough for a generation.