Mr. HAMMOND. I believe they are all controlled by the same interests, and in fact, their representatives say that the officers are the We are talking about the distributing companies.

Mr. SHARP. Are they connected with the other companies who furnish power to them for distribution, reaching to the original company that takes power direct from the Falls?

Mr. HAMMOND. That is my information. Each of the distributing companies in Buffalo is either controlled by the transmitting company, or they have a large amount of stock in the company, so that they have control.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Is it not a fact that the president of one company is the vice president of another?

Mr. HAMMOND. That is true.

Mr. SHARP. Just one more question. The other day some reference was made by one of the speakers who I thought was very well quali fied to speak. He said that one of these companies had as one of their assets certain political standing in the State, and he mentioned some of the former statesmen who were in touch either with the commission or the companies. Do you think there is anything in thatthat there is a political asset as well as a property asset?

Mr. HAMMOND. That I could not say. My investigations have not led me to that.

Mr. SHARP. You do not know anything about that?

Mr. HAMMOND. I do not know anything about that.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. I would like to know what the price of power in Buffalo is as compared with other cities in New York that receive this same character of power.

Mr. HAMMOND. These matters of power prices are very intricate and complicated affairs, I find. In a general way I have found that Buffalo is paying more than Lockport or other places that are near Buffalo.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Can you state what it is in Lockport?

Mr. HAMMOND. I can not. I have understood that it is lower. Gentlemen who are here can give you those prices absolutely. I do not like to say what they are when I am simply giving you my impressions in a general way.

What the city of Buffalo wants is also more power granted to the State, so that we can have the benefit of having the entire amount of water that is available and feasible to be diverted under this treaty. We would like to have absolutely stated in this bill the amount of water diverted and used, and I care not, and the people of Buffalo care not, whether our learned Attorney General is correct and that it should be done by the bill giving the State the power to regulate and control and take care of that matter or whether it be done by the Federal Government, if Congress has that power. That is a matter I have not gone into. But we do say, whichever way your committee here determine is proper, we do want to have that water power available, so that if the people in the State of New York and the different municipalities within and outside the State want to have some grant made by the State of New York, if it is necessary, in order to put into operation a proposition somewhat similar to the hydroelectric commission of Canada, that that can be done. That comes to the proposition as to why I am here. That is one proposition we want. Mr. LEVY. That is what I want.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. You would not favor giving this power to these two companies that are generating?

Mr. HAMMOND. I assume they should be put under a proper control. I would not take it away from these companies if they are justly and fairly entitled to it, and it can be reasonably exercised by power of control over them to see if it was properly used; but I do say that any power taken should be controlled by some authority-I do not care whether it is the State of New York or the Federal Government-I believe it should be used most efficiently. In other words, we are coming to the point now where this water power is so valuable that there should be some control to see that the power that is taken is used efficiently and the best results produced. In other words, not to let some company take the power and not have an efficient apparatus by which it can get the most with that power and not waste the power. We of Buffalo believe it should be properly handled and properly regulated by the proper authority to see that efficient power is generated and that efficient plants are erected and taken care of to use that power.

Mr. FLOOD. Is there any complaint that these companies have any inefficient plants?

Mr. HAMMOND. I have heard that some plants are more efficient than others.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Now, the Hydraulic Power Co. is a company which is not distributing except in the neighborhood of Niagara?

Mr. HAMMOND. I can not tell you the details of that. Gentlemen here can give you those facts better than I, and I do not like to give you my impressions.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. What company transmits it to the city line?
Mr. HAMMOND. The Niagara Falls Power Co.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Then it is taken from that company by a distributing company that has an agreement with another company for the service?

Mr. HAMMOND. Absolutely.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. So that there must be three profits paid from the time the water is taken to the time when it reaches the consumer? Mr. HAMMOND. Absolutely.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. I should like to know something about that.

Mr. HAMMOND. That is something I can not talk about, but there are gentlemen here who can give you more facts. One company, the Cataract Power & Conduit Co., distributes only power, and they then furnish power to the Buffalo General Electric Co., which furnishes light, so that with that company there are only two profits, whereas with the Buffalo General Electric Co. there are three, which you mention.

Mr. FLOOD. With reference to this question of efficiency, what is the greatest quantity of power produced by any of these companies per cubic foot?

Mr. HAMMOND. I can not tell you. I have not the knowledge nor the inclination. That is all I have to say. Those three propositions are the things I came here for, and I have presented them as best I could, without any preparation. I came down to give you these facts and to say to you that, as far as the people of the city of Buffalo are concerned, they would like to have those things done, as well as that with regard to further regulations, if possible.

Mr. LEVY. Do you know what the cost of street lamps is in Buffalo compared with the city of New York?

Mr. HAMMOND. I do not.

Mr. LEVY. I would like to get some idea of just what benefits these companies are to Buffalo. How much do these companies, that may be considered as domestic companies, how much do they pay in taxes annually to Buffalo?

Mr. HAMMOND. I can not tell you that. We have in New York State a franchise tax by the State, as the attorney general can explain, and in addition to that we have the general taxation and the board of assessors of the municipality. I can send them to the committee if you desire it. I can give you the total amount of taxes that they pay. I will be very glad to do that.

Mr. LEVY. How much difference is there between the price charged for this electric power in Buffalo, per horsepower, and the price charged per horsepower generated by steam?

Mr. HAMMOND. We have not in Buffalo any company that generates power by steam and sells it to the public that I know of. In other words, we have simply these two companies, the Cataract Power & Conduit Co. and the Buffalo General Electric Co.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. They do substantially all of the business?
Mr. HAMMOND. Absolutely; it is a monopoly.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. There is no competition whatever?

Mr. HAMMOND. We do have some private plants for the purpose of lighting public buildings like the city hall. But there are only a few of those in Buffalo, and outside of that the only way the city of Buffalo can get electric power at the present time is from those companies.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. What does it cost per horsepower?

Mr. HAMMOND. $30 per horsepower for purposes of power.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. What is the relative difference between the two, between the power and the lighting?

Mr. HAMMOND. The lighting runs from 4 to 9 cents a kilowatt hour. Nine is the house lighting.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. I do not see how you can institute any comparison between those two.

Mr. HAMMOND. We can make a comparison in the horsepower. Mr. CонN. Mr. Hammond, you have stated here several times that this is a monopoly in the city of Buffalo.

Mr. HAMMOND. That is my claim.

Mr. COHN. Do you object to that, or do the people of Buffalo object to it as a monopoly?

Mr. HAMMOND. My position with regard to that, and here I can not speak for the city as a whole, I can speak from my experience. For instance, in the gas investigation-that is, I believe if we had the proper power placed somewhere to regulate and control and see that proper service is given, that a monopoly is best for the city. But without that proper control to regulate, to control these companies, then it is bad.

Mr. COHN. Is it not a fact that the company which I represent applied to the city of Buffalo to distribute power in the city, and its application was refused?

Mr. HAMMOND. That is so. That was some years ago.

Mr. CонN. Is it not a fact also that the Ontario Power Co. have tried to come into the city of Buffalo to distribute power, but that the franchise which was offered was of such a character

Mr. HAMMOND. I do not know.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Why do you not ask him under what conditions?

Mr. CонN. There were no conditions

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Why was the rate refused?
Mr. HAMMOND. They did not want competition.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Who controlled the refusal?

Mr. HAMMOND. The public authorities of the city of Buffalo.

Mr. LEGARE. Have you the right under your charter to manufacture your own electricity?

Mr. HAMMOND. I think we would have to have an amendment to the charter, to have an amendment by the legislature.

Mr. LEGARE. Are you sure about that?

Mr. HAMMOND. That is my impression; that we would have to do that to have that right.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. In granting this original right, did you give this power company absolute right to use the streets without competition?

Mr. HAMMOND. Oh, no; not without competition at all; absolutely

not.

Mr. BROWNE. Coming back to the question suggested by Congressman Levy, I understand that when you speak of what the city of Buffalo wants, you speak only of quantity?

Mr. HAMMOND. Of what?

Mr. BROWNE. Of quantity. What the city of Buffalo wants is that the full amount of 20,000 feet allowed by the treaty shall be allowed to be diverted, so that it can get the benefit of the 4,400 feet? The city of Buffalo wants more power?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROWNE. Is it not true that they also want more power by importation-that they want more power, by importation-that they want more power, wherever it comes from?

Mr. HAMMOND. And we need it.

Mr. BROWNE. And there is a demand for it?

Mr. HAMMOND. Absolutely. And it should be properly regulated and controlled. That is why I come back to the Federal proposition. The CHAIRMAN. Is that all you desire to say?

Mr. FLOOD. You said in your opening remark you were going to say something about a division of territory between these companies. Mr. HAMMOND. I simply said to you that from the facts I have been able to ascertain, what I expect to prove in the investigation is that there is that arrangement.

Mr. FLOOD. You did not expect to prove it here?

Mr. HAMMOND. I am satisfied there is a division of territory between these companies.

Mr. FLOOD. Could you state what territory the respective companies have?

Mr. HAMMOND. I can not state that at the present time, and I would not want to state it, if I might be permitted not to.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other person here who desires to be heard, from the State of New York?

We will now hear from Mr. Edward Haggeman Hall, representing the American Scenic and Historical Asociation.

STATEMENT OF MR. EDWARD HAGGEMAN HALL, OF THE AMERICAN SCENIC AND HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION, OF NEW YORK, N. Y.

Mr. HALL. Mr. Chairman, I represent the American Scenic and Historical Association.

I came down here by vote of the trustees of our society at their regular monthly meeting last evening, upon only two hours' notice. Our interest is in the preservation of the scenery of Niagara Falls. Two of our trustees best qualified to speak on that subject were prevented from coming, one by illness, and another by an engagement in the courts.

It seems to me proper that one should speak with specific facts with regard to these matters. I do not feel qualified upon this short notice, so to speak, and I do not think it is just, either to our society or to you or to myself, to attempt to present such an argument on such short notice, without preparation.

I feel, however, that the principal legal question which has come up here is one which is worthy of your consideration, and I might say we called it to the attention of the senior Senator from New York something over a year ago, and called his attention to the fact that the question which the Attorney General has brought up here to-day is liable to come up. I want to say for our society that, in case Congress should turn that power over to the State, we have as much confidence that our State authorities will be amenable to the sentiment in regard to the preservation of the Falls as you gentlemen here.

Mr. GARNER. Who was the senior Senator from New York, whose attention you called to it?

Mr. HALL. Senator Root.

Mr. GARNER. You do not know whether he was interested in any of these companies, do you?

Mr. HALL. I do not.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Would your association be satisfied to turn this matter over to the conservation commission of the State?

Mr. HALL. I think so, sir. They have not passed upon that question because I do not think they knew about it.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. You would be willing to have them take jurisdiction in this matter?

Mr. HALL. If they could.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now hear from Mr. J. Horace McFarland, president of the American Civic Association.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. HORACE MCFARLAND, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN CIVIC ASSOCIATION.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Mr. Chairman, the legislation before you relates to the enforcement of Article V of the treaty between the United States and Great Britain, proclaimed May 13, 1910, the section cited being that which limits the diversion of the water of the Niagara River above the Falls of Niagara for power purposes.