Mr. LEVY. There might be discovered some substitute for electricity, but that is not probable. You say that the people of Buffalo want this on account of the power famine. Now, then, if this is done, the limit will be reached again and there will be another famine?

Mr. SAWYER. Is it not an adequate answer to that question to say that we have a treaty signed by the President, that this treaty was practically unattacked for a length of time, and then this was slipped over on use? We come, seeing that the presumption is in our favor on account of this treaty, and I can not assume the rôle of a prophet as to whether we shall want more.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Right on the line of Mr. Cooper's question; as I understand it, it is a fact that out of 160,000 horsepower that Canada is permitted to put into this country only 110,000 of it is being used now. If that is true, then there are 50,000 horsepower remaining in Canada that can be used. Why should there be a famine?

Mr. SAWYER. I could answer that, but

Mr. GARNER. Might I ask you a question? The basis of this treaty was the preservation of the beauty of Niagara Falls?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARNER. And thus we are fighting the proposition of permitting a greater amount of power to come from Canada. That is with the presumption that Canada will not use all the power that the treaty now gives; is that not true?

Mr. SHARP. Domestic.

Mr. SAWYER. Why, no; I think that is a matter of information.

Mr. GARNER. I will ask you this question, then: If Congress did not pass laws regulating the importation of power from Canada, you could bring in the full amount that the treaty permits Canada to produce?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARNER. And also use the full amount that the treaty permits the United States to utilize?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARNER. Now, the only discussion would be to determine whether or not Canada could use that power at present

Mr. SHARP. Domestic.

Mr. GARNER. All kinds of power; from both Canada and the United States.

Mr. SAWYER. I admit that; I admit that; but we who have been in Buffalo know that the cry about the beauty of the Falls is more neurasthenic than practical. You know that we can go to the Falls day after day and year after year and never see any perceptible difference in the beauty of the Falls. Now, there are other men who can argue that better, but the substance of your question was that there was some invasion on this scenic beauty, and that I deny.

Mr. GARNER. My object is this: In case Congress should extend it it 160,000 horsepower, would it not naturally follow that in the course of time manufacturing establishments would be created along the border, where the entire power would be utilized by Canada and the United States would have none?

Mr. SAWYER. Certainly; the water will be abstracted anyway.

Mr. GARNER. As I understand the Representatives who would like to see the scenic beauty preserved, if we prevent a foreign power being imported into the United States it will be years and yearsprobably a century-before the power will give out?

Mr. SAWYER. Oh, no.

Mr. SMITH, of New York. Mr. Garner, there is one other speaker following who will answer that.

Mr. CURLEY. What is the difference in the prices charged by the two operating companies up there?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not know anything about the price.

Mr. CURLEY. Why, of course you know; you are a member of the chamber of commerce.

Mr. SAWYER. No; I am struggling to fully answer all your questions.

Mr. FLOOD. It seems to me that these companies have divided the territory up.

Mr. SAWYER. Apparently; but that is not true. The greatest difficulty I have is in talking about two things at the same time. All that I know is that there are two companies in Buffalo. Unfortunately, we have certain theoretical gentlemen who have never at any time accomplished any good for themselves or anybody else, but who are abundantly able to run all the civic associations, public-service corporations, banks, and everything else. These gentlemen say that we will be obliged to go outside; that is what sent them, I assume, to Dunkirk, to Auburn, and to Montmorris.

Mr. FLOOD. What sort of a contract did this company in Buffalo make?

Mr. SAWYER. I can not go into that.

Mr. CURLEY. You will agree that it is a very important question? Mr. SAWYER. Oh, no.

Mr. CURLEY. Then you can withdraw it.

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; but they wanted to specify other things.

Mr. KENDALL. What do they charge for a kilowatt?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not know.

Mr. KENDALL. You are here representing nobody?

Mr. SAWYER. No, sir

Mr. KENDALL. Are you interested in any of these companies?

Mr. SAWYER. Certainly I am not.

Mr. KENDALL. What do you use in your place-kerosene or gas? Mr. SAWYER. Gas; natural gas.

Mr. KENDALL. Are you in business in Buffalo?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENDALL. Use kerosene?

Mr. SAWYER. I am a director in various companies that use that, but I am not strictly a manufacturer.

Mr. KENDALL. You buy a lead pencil in a store and you know what you pay for it?

Mr. SAWYER. No, sir; I have a stenographer who buys them, and I would go crazy if I tried to know what I paid for everything. [Laughter.]

Mr. CURLEY. I assumed that you were a practical man because you spoke so slightingly of the theorists, and as a practical man you should be familiar with the prices charged per kilowatt

Mr. DIFENDERFER. Will you answer my question?

Mr. SAWYER. Every contract that is made has to be filed with the public service commission. I am a director of a company-I happen to be the president of a company which had to negotiate for a considerable quantity of Niagara power, and we could not do it because I thought we could light our office building cheaper in the old way, and we have been going on and taking care of things. Last month we made a contract for a long term of years with an electric company. I do not know whether we have gotten it more liberally, but I think they have come down. Now, these prices all have to be O. K'd.; every contract that is put on file. The Utilities Commission of the State of New York has been in operation since July 1, 1907. Its decisions and the character of its members has given that commission a standing that is similar to that held by our Supreme Court or even our Court of Appeals. A good many of them are laymen, but some of them are lawyers, and I think that answers the question of price in New York State. I think the complications growing out of any attempt to make the price parallel to that of any other country is likely to be futile, but that is only my opinion

about it.

Now, gentlemen, I have one other thing to say from the chamber of commerce, and that is, that we want you members of this committee to come up there as our guests and see the Falls and study them at close hand. Gentlemen, remember that we have been studying this proposition since 1890, when the first electrical installation began, and it is full of pitfalls and full of complications, and a man must be almost superhuman who can handle this as an academic proposition without having the thing before his eyes and mind, to get really the idea.

I have had the honor of conducting to the Niagara Falls the President of the United States and spending a day with him-Mr. LEGARE. I want to ask you this question: Was not the question of scenic beauty settled by this treaty?

Mr. SAWYER. Certainly.

Mr. LEGARE. Was not the treaty brought about by the endeavor to find out just how much water could be used without affecting the scenic beauty?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LEGARE. And did not that commission of scientists decide that the amount of water used in the treaty could be used without affecting the scenic beauty and no more?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LEGARE. And we can use the limit, then, mentioned in the treaty?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. A more important question is the question of the price of this power transmitted from Canada.

Mr. SAWYER. I only want to get my invitation out.

Mr. GARNER. If it is the duty of this committee to go to Buffalo and Niagara Falls for the purpose of seeing the Falls, is not it the duty of the people of the United States to pay the expenses?

Mr. SAWYER. I am not a easuist, but I can not answer your question. The CHAIRMAN. You have no objection to the members paying their own fares?

Mr. SAWYER. Not the slightest. I have been there on several occasions with the Committee on Rivers and Harbors.

Now, we want you to come to the city of Buffalo, which has a hundred thousand dollars to spend on advertising

Mr. KENDALL. And entertainment.

Mr. SAWYER. And this would be a very cheap method of coming there. If you don't want to come at our expense, come at your own. It seems to me a needlessly sensitive question-only a matter of two days' banging around in a sleeping car. I think it is almost a senseless objection. We are so confident that you will agree with our position if you will come there and look at the Falls.

Mr. KENDALL. The treaty had its origin out of a general demand that existed in this country and in Canada for the preservation of the scenic beauty of the Falls?

Mr. KENDALL. And prior to the negotiation of the treaty the testimony of the most competent experts in this country and in the other country was taken as to the amount of water diversion that could be safely authorized and contemplated the preservation of the Falls? Mr. SAWYER. I so understand it.

Mr. KENDALL. I think Mr. Root represented this Government and Mr. Bryce the other Government?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. KENDALL. They determined that not more than 36,000 cubic feet of water a second on the Canadian side and 20,000 cubic feet a second on the American side could safely be diverted. What is the equivalent horsepower of a cubic foot of power?

Mr. SAWYER. That depends on the effectiveness of the installation. It takes from 13 to 15, or even to 17.

Mr. FLOOD. It was said before this committee last summer to be 17. Mr. KENDALL. Taking 15 as the mean, that would mean then that the United States would have the right to create 300 horsepower— Mr. SAWYER. Fifteen

The CHAIRMAN. Fifteen times twenty thousand.

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. KENDALL. And Canada would have the right to create 36 times 15?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. KENDALL. Now, under the provisions of the Burton law only 160,000 horsepower can be transmitted into the United States? Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. KENDALL. How much of that is now being appropriated by people on this side?

Mr. SAWYER. Why don't you let these engineers answer that when they come? I think there is a dead charter over there that is held in a dog-in-the-manger kind of way; but there are gentlemen here who can answer that, so please let me go.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sawyer, there are eminent engineers here who can go into those details. What I would like to have you tell us is what the people of Buffalo want. I am a friend of Buffalo. Tell us what the chamber of commerce and the people of Buffalo want?

Mr. SAWYER. They want more power. They want the limitation removed. They want all the power that will come from forty-four hundred additional cubic feet per second on this side.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, they want what the treaty gives the United States?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; any they don't take any hand in the distribution of this forty-four hundred feet. Of course, we want it where we can get it.

Mr. GARNER. We want to thank you for your very kind invitation. Mr. SAWYER. I do insist that that is open to you at any time.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now hear from Gen. William H. Bixby, Chief of the Corps of Engineers of the United States Army.

REMARKS OF GEN. WILLIAM H. BIXBY, CHIEF OF THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY.

Gen. BIXBY. Gentlemen, I came here with a little more haste than I expected this morning, because I did not have much notice that I would be called on this morning. I have brought along with me Maj. Ladue, of my office, who has had special charge of this Niagara Falls matter during the past few years in my office; and I have also brought with me Mr. Buell of his office. We have come without any special preparation of figures or specially prepared documents. We ean furnish these to you at any time if you will indicate just what you want. Of course, we can state all that we have gone over in the past years; but the most essential features of the engineer's work in the preservation of Niagara Falls are all boiled down in the printed report which you have in front of you.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. What is that printed report which you speak of!

Gen. BIXBY. House Document 246.

Mr. GARDNER. Oh, no; that is not it.

Gen. BIXBY (after examining pamphlet). No; it is a quarto volume about three-quarters of an inch thick.

Mr. DIFENDERFER. It is a Senate document. As printed it is a Senate document, No. 105. Mr. Cooper, you can get it.

Gen. BIXBY. The document that is already printed and distributed is Senate Document No. 105. The other document, which is in proof sheets and in the printer's hands now, is House Document No. 246, this session-they are two separate and distinct documents. Mr. DIFENDERFER. This House document is later?

Gen. BIXBY. It is running through the press now and will be bound and distributed presently. In this last document we state the exact total effect, so far found, on Lake Erie and on the Niagara River of the diversions up to date; and have made estimates of what the effect will be on these waterways from the total diversions that are being permitted, and they will be accompanied by figures.

Mr. KENDALL. You have reported what the effect will be of the diversion allowed by law?

Gen. BIXBY. Not all of it, but of so much as has been used.

Mr. KENDALL. Then you have reported what, in your opinion, would be the effect

28305-12- -3