But now the matter was carried, much was proper to convert the indisposable farther, for we were told that it actually into disposable force, as much as possible. had succeeded. But it certainly could He was surprised to hear the right hon. not be said with truth, with regard to the gent. say, that, to obtain the militia for past time, and, fortunately for the right hon. the army, was not an increase of force, gent, who made the assertion, there were when he had been all along contending no other documents for any other time. that the usefulness of troops did not He said that 180 or 200 men were pro- depend on their numbers. Again, the cured weekly. This might be the case charge of inconsistency lay with those at present, but a very different result who thought that an immediate reduction might be given at the conclusion. A very should take place, and yet opposed this small difference in the centre made a very measure. There might be differences as wide one in the circumference. He de- to the mode, but it was curious to hear nied that this was an increase to our those who wished for the reduction of the force, and dwelt upon the impolicy of militia oppose all modes for that purpose, making the militia officers discontented. Some were for the gradual, and others for He contended, that so far as the present the immediate abolition of the slave trade; measure, would be successful, it was a but it would be curious to hear one conrepeal of the foriner. Why did not gen- tend for the abolition, and yet refuse both tlemen call things by their proper names, of these methods. Considering all theand say that this was a bill for transform- objections, he was at a loss to guess to what ing militia-men into regular soldiers? Was they would come at last. They objected their system so very changeable, that the to different descriptions of force, and rerecollection of their former measures quired that an exigency should be stated, passed away like visions; or did they and then attacked this measure as being a think that they had performed something compromise. In a free country, every Tike a military manœuvre, that they had transaction of this nature necessarily parmarched away in silence without the beat took of the form of a compromise; and of drum, and left only their tents standing, upon the whole he thought that there was that we might not be aware that the main nothing solid in the objections to this body had stolen away under cover of the measure. night. They had said, however, that their former, measure had not had a fair trial, and accordingly they had more time given for the accomplishing of their object. But now it seemed that it was put off ud Græcas Calendas, in order to make way for this new plan.

Mr. Giles was astonished at the bold assertion, that the present bill was not a repeal of the additional force bill. The latter had three objects in view: 1st, to establish a permanent force; 2d, imme diately to augment that force; 3d, gradually to reduce the militia: and this Mr. Canning observed, that the right threefold design appeared in the preamble hon. gent. must forego the satisfaction of the bill. The present bill, in the third which he seemed to derive from the idea object, by transferring 17,000 men from of the bill being a repeal of the former. the militia to the regular force, so far, at The operation of that bill was never in- least, manifestly repeals the former. Anotended to supply the vacancies that were ther object was comprised in the former, to be filled up by the present measure. which was to extinguish ballots. These Ile must also forego the gratification of must be revived by the present bill; and the confession that the former bill had so far agajn, the anterior measure was refailed. There was a difference between a pealed, He was not at all surprised at the total and a partial failure. The whole contradiction between these expedients, failure that had taken place, and that was but at least they ought to be recognized admitted, was, that the men had not been and understood, It ought to be known, procured in so short a time as had been that the minister himself acknowledged, expected. The best proof that it had not that the objections he had made with so failed was that it was producing at the much animation to preceding schemes of rate of 9000 men a year for the army. national defence were vain and futile, and There was no inconsistency here. Be-that he himself was at last constrained to cause the former measure was not calcu-tread in the steps of his predecessor. The lated to produce an immediate disposable additional force bill, by a strange inconforce. It was agreed on all hands that it sistency, required the parish to supply the

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that gentlemen had inaccurately stated both the facts, and the conclusions from those facts; he would admit, for the sake of argument, that their facts were correct, but he could not grant the same indulgence [MINUTES.] Counsel were farther heard ́ to their deductions from them. For a mo- relative to the Scotch appeal, Cathcart v. ment, therefore, he would grant that the the earl of Cassilis, viz. Mr. Adam as leadadditional force bill had wholly failed: the ing counsel for the respondent.-The bills natural deduction then was, that some upon the table were forwarded in their seother measure must be resorted to; but veral stages.-Lord Hawkesbury moved the gentlemen used it as an argument, that to first reading of the militia enlisting bill, the present, and no other expedient, should and that the bill be printed, which were orthe country have recourse to supply the dered accordingly. His lordship then moved deficiency resulting from that disappoint- that the said bill be read a second time on ment. Gentlemen had likewise contend-Thursday next, and that the lords be summoned for that day.-Ordered.

ment for the abrogation of every standing ders; alluding to what had taken place order in the book. last night, and its being contended that a standing order admitted of no debate, but that it should be inmediately acted upon; he adverted to the inconsistency of

Lord Mulgrave acknowledged, he had not been sufficiently explicit in terms, as to the nature of his intended motion; but, when he had expressed his disap-such an idea, which went to prevent a probation of the order, in so marked a manner, he thought no doubt could arise as to his intention. However, he should now give a specific notice, that it was his intention to move, on Monday next, that the order in question be expunged.

noble and learned friend of his from demonstrating that it was impossible to comply with the order in question.

Lord Mulgrave perfectly concurred in what had been thrown out by his noble friend on the woolsack. With respect to The Lord Chancellor made some obser- their lordships' being required by the order vations in support of what fell from his no-to sit in their proper places respectively; ble friend, relative to the effects and con- he conceived it to mean that the barons sequences of the order adverted to. He should sit together on certain benches, the was adverse from its being considered as a earls on other distinct benches, the dukes standing order; its import and wording on others, and so on. This consideration being different from all others of that de- was with him an additionally strong and forciscription. In the way in which it was con-ble objection to the order, which may renstrued by some noble lords last night, it der it necessary that their lordships should, was the most inconsistent thing imaginable; as at the word of command, arrange thenfor, in the event of the usual notice being selves in a species of military array, or fall given for its suspension, on any particular into their respective ranks, like soldiers occasion, how could they know but any on the parade: but setting any thing like noble lord might, on the very day it was ap- a ludicrous consideration of such a propointed to be considered, move the house ceeding aside, it militated, as well as other to resolve into a committee? a proceeding serious and more important objections, which might be urged any moment while against the order. The question was put, the order existed. An additional objec- and their lordships ordered to be sumtion against the order was its general im-moned for Monday next.-Adjourned. practicability; because, were the order literally and fully enforced, their lordships, while in such committee, were required to sit, each in their proper places, according to their ranks and degrees; a proceeding which, in that new house, their lordships would find it rather difficult to carry into effect.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, April 2.

[MINUTES.] Lord John Thynne took the oaths and his seat on his re-election for Bath.-Mr. Creevey gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for some further documents relative to the balances in Earl Spencer observed that, circum- the hands of the late hon. Keith Stuart.— stanced as their lordships were at present, Lord Brome brought in a bill for improvthe proceeding adverted to would be to-ing the port of Ipswich in Suffolk, which tally impracticable. He recollected, that was read a first time.-Dr. Duigenan gave some time since, a commitee had been ap-notice, that he would to-morrow move for pointed to settle and arrange the proper leave to bring in a bill for the amendment seats for the respective orders of the peer- of Queen Anne's bounty act, in Ireland.→ age in that house; but no report had yet Mr. S. Bourne, pursuant to order, presentbeen made upon the subject; that com- ed an account of the application of the inittee should be referred to. In the house surplus revenue of the Isle of Man.-Orin which they formerly sat, the respective dered to be printed.-The innkeepers bill places were regularly arranged; every peer went through a committee, and was ordered knew his proper place when it was neces-to be reported to-morrow.-The customs sary he should sit in it; but, in the pre-duty bill, the American treaty bill, and sent house, that being not yet settled, such the Bengal council bill, were read a third a proceeding was impossible. time and passed.

The Lord Chancellor spoke in explana- [IRISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.] The tion, and slightly adverted to the incon- Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the orveniencies which must sometimes arise der of the day for the house going into a from too literal an enforcement of the or-committee on this bill.

Mr. Kinnaird thought the hon. gent. who spoke last had made an extraordinary proposition by desiring to have the opi. nion of the only two gentlemen in the kingdom, who, by the rules of law and common sense, were necessarily excluded from giving it, because it was a case upon their own claim.-The motion was then put and carried.

[LORD MELVILLE'S LETTER TO THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY] Mr. Williams, secretary to the commissioners of naval enquiry, presented a Copy of a Letter from lord viscount Melville to the commissioners of naval enquiry, dated the 28th of March, 1805, and of the answer thereto by the commissioners.

liament to the subject, this commission | tion concerning the affairs of Ireland, he had now been existing for several years, thought the opinion of the attorney and so without really having any thing to do, and licitor general of that part of the United seemed still determined to go on. The Kingdom ought to be taken also. commission consisted of four persons, each of whom received a salary of 1,2001. per year, and it was now above three years since the commissioners wrote a letter to the lord lieutenant, stating, that their business was so much diminished that they had no occasion to meet every day, as they had previously done, and requesting that they might be called on to meet only every Monday. In order to contrive some appearance of employment, he understood that those commissioners prolonged an inquiry upon a particular claim for several months, dividing the inquiry between them two and two alternately, Monday after Monday. It really struck him as matter of surprize and shame that such a commission should have been so long tolerated, and there appeared no disposition whatever to put an end to it. Indeed, according as it went on, it was likely to continue for ever, unless something was done to terminate its existence. Feeling that any expenditure of the public money that could be avoided under the present circumstances of the country ought to be prevented, and that this commission was now become unnecessary, he should take occasion very soon to call the attention of the house to this subject.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "that these papers do lie upon the table to be perused by the members of the house;" and he said he should immediately afterwards move that they be printed.

Mr. Francis wished to know whether a motion could not be made to print them immediately, so that there should be no delay in making them known to members.

The Speaker observed that the motion, that these papers do lie upon the table to be perused by the members of the house, must be disposed of before any thing else

Dr. Duigenan said, that he was a mem-could regularly be done. ber of the commission alluded to at the The Chancellor of the Exchequer said they time stated in the motion, and that he could be printed without difficulty by todid not recollect any such case as the hon. morrow. bart. alluded to. As three of the commissioners were lawyers he did not think they required any advice from the law officers mentioned in the motion, or from any other persons as to the mode of perform-now read." ing this duty. The learned doctor added, that he had long since resigned his place in the commission.

Sir John Newport said, that it had been already stated by the commissioners themselves, that such case had been laid before the attorney and solicitor general of England, and all he wished was, to see the opinion which had been given upon the case so stated.

Mr. Alderman Combe, by way of giving to the house the contents immediately, moved au amendment, instead of laying them on the table, "that these papers be

The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no objection, and therefore consented to withdraw his motion for the present to make way for that of the worthy alderman. They were accordingly read by the clerk at the table, and are as follows: Copy of a Letter from Lord Melville to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, dated the 28th of March 1805.

Gentlemen; having read your Tenth Mr. Sturges Bourne was ready to Report, and observing particularly the pay attention to the opinions of eminent following paragraph in the 141st pagegentlemen at the bar, on cases fairly stated" However the apprehension of disclosing to them, and especially those who were so "delicate and confidential transactions of eminent in their profession as the gentle-" government might operate with lord men alluded to; but as this was a ques- "Melville in withholding information re

rendering more effectual the provisions of enclosures; also, a copy of a letter from the London dock act. On the motion of the navy board to the admiralty, dated 1st Dr. Duigenan, leave was given to bring in April, 1805, in answer to the abovemena bill to amend the act for building Glebe tioned letter of sir H. Popham; also, a houses in Ireland. The following papers, copy of a letter from sir H. Popham to on the motion of Mr. Creevey, were order-the navy board, dated Feb. 28, 1805; also, ed to be laid before the house, viz. A a copy of a letter from sir H. Popham to copy of the power of attorney, or other the navy board, dated March 26, 1805, with instrument, granted by the lords of the the answer of the board thereto. treasury to the then lord advocate of Scot- Mr. Grey said, he did not rise to object land, now lord justice Clerk, to prosecute to the production of these or any other or give discharges for the claims made by papers that might tend to elucidate the government on the late admiral Keith subject, but merely to remark, that seveStewart: an account of all sums of money, ral weeks had elapsed since a variety of or securities for money, paid by the repre-papers moved for on both sides had been sentatives of the late admiral Keith Stew-presented, since which no inquiry had art to the lord justice Clerk, in pur- taken place. By such motions as the presuance of the said power of attorney, spe- sent the discussion might be postponed to cifying the times when such sums or secu- an indefinite period. rities were paid; a copy of the account Mr. Dickenson stated the grounds of his settled and discharged with the represen- motion, which were, that sir H. Popham tatives of the late admiral Keith Stewart, having discovered some imperfections in by the lord justice Clerk acting under the the original report of the navy board, had aforesaid authority; a copy of the petition written to the admiralty on the subject, from the town of Edinburgh to the lords and that the amended report had not been of the treasury, praying that 21,000l., be received by the admiralty until yesterday. granted out of the balances due from the Some further conversation ensued belate admiral Keith Stewart, for the pur-tween Mr. Grey, the Chancellor of the poses therein mentioned; together with Exchequer, Mr. Dickenson, and Mr. Kinthe reference made by the lords of the naird; in the course of which Mr. Kintreasury to the court of exchequer in Scot-naird intimated his intention of bringing land on the subject. On the motion of forward a motion relative to sir H. PopMr. S. Bourne, it was likewise ordered, ham, on Tuesday, the 7th of May next. that there be laid before the house a copy Mr. Dickenson's motions were then agreed of such further proceedings as may have to, been had by the lords of the treasury for the recovery of any sum due to the public from the representatives of the late admiral Keith Stewart. On the motion of Mr. Giles, it was ordered, that there be laid before the house a return of the number of effective men raised under the additional defence act from the 1st of Feb. last to the period of the latest return, stating the number of men raised per week, and specifying those provided by the parish officers, and those procured by recruiting officers; as likewise the number that had enlisted into his majesty's forces for gene-duced him to bring forward this motion, ral service. Mr. Bagwell brought in the bill for regulating Irish freeholders, which was read a first time. The innkeepers' bill, and the Irish spirit permit bill, were read a third time and passed.

[CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.j Mr. Dickenson jun. moved, that there be laid before the house a copy of a letter from sir Home Popham to the secretary of the admiralty, dated 25th Feb. 1805, with its

[IRISH UNION COMMISSIONERS.] Sir John Newport rose to make his promised motion for the production of a copy of the case laid before the attorney and soli citor general of England on the 16th of May, 1801, by direction of the commis sioners for awarding compensation in Ireland in consequence of the union, relative to the claim for compensation from the attorney and solicitor general of Ireland; together with a copy of the opinion of the attorney and solicitor general of England upon this case. The reason which in

the hon, bart. stated to be this, that the house should be put in possession of the nature and conduct of this singular commission. It appeared, that notwithstanding their appeal to the judgment of the attorney and solicitor general of England, they had acted in direct contradiction to the opinion delivered by those learned gentlemen. But still more, and it was particularly necessary to call the attention of par