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But now, the matter was carried much was proper to convert the indisposabl farther, for we were told that it actually into disposable force, as much as possible bad succeeded. But it certainly could He was surprised to hear the right hon not be said with truth, with regard to the gent, say, that, to obtain the militia fu past time, and, fortunately for the right hon. the army, was not an increase of force gepa, who made the assertion, there were when he had been all along contending no other documents for any other time. that the usefulness of troops did no He said that 180 or 200 men were pro- depend on their numbers. Again, the cured veekly. This might be the case charge of inconsistency lay with those at présent, but a very different result who thought that an inmediate reduction might be given at the conclusion. A very should take place, and yet opposed thi small difference in the centre made a very ineasure. There might be differences as wide one in the circumference. He de- to the mode, but it was curious to hea nied that this was an increase to our those who wished for the reduction of the force, and dwelt upon the impolicy of militia oppose all modes for that purpose making the militia officers discontented. Some were for the gradual, and others foi He contended, triat so far as the present the immediate abolition of the slave trade measure, would be successful, it was a but it would be curious to hear one con repeal of the foriner. Why did not gen- tend for the abolition, and yet refuse bot! tlemen call things by their proper nanies, of these methods, Considering all the and say that this was a bill for transform-objections, he was at a loss to guess to what ing militia-men into regular soldiers? Was they would come at last. They objected their system so very changeable, that the to different descriptions of force, and rerecollection of their former measures quired that an exigency should be stated, passed away. like visions; or did they and then attacked this measure as being a think that they had performed something compromise. In a free country, every like a military manæuvre, that they had transaction of this nature necessarily parmarched away in silence without the beat took of the form of a compromise; and of drum, and left only their tents standing, upon the whole he thought that there was that we might not be aware that the main nothing solid in the objections to this body had stolen away under cover of the measure. night. They had said, however, that their Mr. Giles was astonished at tlie bold former, measure had not had a fair trial, assertion, that the present bill was not a and accordingly they had more time given repeal of the additional force bill. The for the accomplishing of their object. But latter had three objects in view: 1st, to now it seemed that it was put off ud Græcas establish a permanent force; 2d, immes Calendas, in order to make way for this diately to augment that force; 3d, granew plan.

dually to reduce the militia: and this Mr. Canning observed, that the right threefold design appeared in the preamble hon. "gent. must forego the satisfaction of the bill. The present bill, in the third which he seemed to derive from the idea object, by transferring 17,000 men from of the bill being a repeal of the former. the militia to the regular force, so far, at The operation of that bill was never in- least, manifestly repeals the former. A110tended to supply the vacancies that were ther object was comprised in the former, to be filled up by the present measure. which was to extinguish ballots. These He must also forego the gratification of must be revived by the present hill; and the confession that the former bill had so far again, the anterior measure was refailed. . There was a difference between a pealed. He was not at all surprised at the total and a partial failure. The whole contradiction between these expedients, failure that had taken place, and that was but at least they ought to be recognized admitted, was, that the men had not been and understood. It ought to be known, procured in so short a time as had been that the minister himself acknowledged, expected. The best proof that it had not that the objections he had made with so failed was that it was producing at the much animation to preceding schemes of rate of 9900 men a year for the army. national desence were vain and futile, and There was no inconsistency liere. Be- that he himself was at last constrained to cause the former measure was not calcu- tread in the steps of his predecessor. The lated to produce an immediate disposable additional force bill, by a strange inconforce. It was agreed on all hands that it sistency, required the parish to supply the

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man, or pay the penalty of 201, within the was the less inclined to urge the observa. period of forty-four days, when the ap- tions he had to offer, at the present mo. poiutment of the men so to be raised was inent, as he made no doubt but the gent. nut to be assigned until three weeks opposite to him would afford him opporposterior,

tunities enough of doing .-The bill was The Chancellor of the Erchequer said, then passed without a division.-Adthat gentlemen had inaccurately stated journed. both the facts, and the conclusions from those facts; he would adınit, for the sake of argument, that their facts were correct,

Tuesday, April 2. but he could not grant the same indulgence [MINUTES.] Counsel were farther heard to their deductions from them. For a mo- relative to the Scotch appeal, Cathcart 7'. ment, therefore, he would grant that the the earl of Cassilis, viz. Mr. Adam as leadadditional force bill had wholly failed: the ing counsel for the respondent. The biils natural deduction then was, that some upon the table were forwarded in their seother measure must be resurted to; but veral stages.-Lord llawkesbury moved the gentlemen used it as an argument, that to first reading of the militia evlisting bill, the present, and no other expedient, should and that the bill be printed, which were orthe country have recourse to supply the dered accordingly. His lordship then moved deficiency resulting from that disappoint- that the said bill be read a second time on ment. Gentlemen had likewise contend- Thursday next, and that the lords be sumed

moned for that day.-Ordered. Mr. Windham here called the right hon. [STANDING Order.] Lord Mulgrave gent. to order, as going beyond the line gave notice, that he should, on Monday of explanation ; but declared, that he had next, move to have the order relative to no objection to hear the right hon. geni. the house resolving into a committee on out in defence of this measure, if by the the motion of any noble peer, taken into rules of their proceedings, he could have consideration. To this he was principally an opportunity of replying to him. induced, by what took place last night;

The Speaker said, he was aware that the and, on account of the constructions which right hon. gent. as far as he proceeded, were put upon the order in question, in did not keep within the limits of explana- the course of the debate. Such an order tion, and that he only waited till that cir- was, he thought, incousistent with the digcumstance should be taken notice of by nity of their lordships' proceedings, and the house, or till by the tenor of his speech might be productive of the highest inconit could be seen whether what he already venience, admitting it to empower any said would be brought to bear upon any lord at his pleasure, thereby to constitute point of explanation.

himself a majority of the house ; and, even The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he when the most important public business should leave it to the judgment of the might be regularly under consideration, to house, whether a short observation made oblige the house to go into a committee. by him before should, in the strictness of An order construed so as to operate in form, be considered as speaking to the that way, was so objectionable in every question. What he said was certainly point of view, that it should not be suffered rather in explanation of what he said in to remain a moment longer than was necesa former stage, than in elucidation of the sary. He concluded by moving that the sentence which fell from him in this ; but lords be summoned for Monday next. he sbould not proceed further if he found Earl Spencer observed, that though the it to be against the pleasure of the house. noble secretary had not stated the nature

The Speaker again observed, that all of his intended motion, yet it might, in which was necessary for him to do, was some degree, be conjectured. As to the to state his conception of the order of degree of inconvenience which that or any proceeding, and as to the rest, it was to other standing order might induce, he be disposed of at the pleasure of the house. should not then offer an opiuion. He,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer then said, however, could not avoid remarking, that that he did vot wish to persist in any thing the noble lord's idea, that “ under the which was contrary to the forms. He was operation of the order alluded to, any satisfied to let the question rest upon the peer might constitute himself, in effect, a ground on which it already stood; and he majority of the house," would be an arguVOL. IV.


ment for the abrogation of every standing ders; alluding to what had taken place order in the book.

last night, and its being contended that Lord Mulgrave acknowledged, he had a standing order admitted of no debate, not been sufficiently explicit in terms, as but that it should be inmediately acted to the nature of his intended motion ; upon; he adverted to the inconsistency of but, when he had expressed liis disap- such an idea, which went to prevent a probation of the order, in so marked a noble and learned friend of his from deinanner, he thought no doubt could arise monstrating that it was impossible to comas to his intention. However, he should ply with the order in question. now give a specific notice, that it was Lord Mulgrare perfectly concurred in his intention to move, on Monday next, what had been thrown out by his noble that the order in question be expunged. friend on the woolsack. With respect to

The Lord Chancellor made some obser- their lordships' being required by the order vations in support of what fell from his no- to sit in their proper places respectively; ble friend, relative to the effects and con- le conceived it to mean that the barons sequences of the order adverted to. He should sit together on certain benches, the was adverse from its being considered as a earls on other distinct benches, the dukes standing order; its import and wording on others, and so on. This consideration being different from all others of that de- was with him an additionally strong and forci. scription. In the way in which it was con- ble objection to the order, which may renstrued by some noble lords last night, it der it necessary that their lordships should, was the most inconsistent thing imaginable; as at the word of command, arrange thendfor, in the event of the usual notice being selves in a species of military array, or fall given for its suspension, on any particular into their respective ranks, like soldiers occasion, how could they know but any on the parade: but setting any thing like noble lord might, on the very day it was ap- a ludicrous consideration of such a propointed to be considered, move the house ceeding aside, it militated, as well as other to resolve into a committee ? a proceeding serious and more important objections, which might be urged any moment while against the order.-The question was put, the order existed. An additional objec- and their lordships ordered to be sumtion against the order was its general im- moned for Monday next.-Adjourned. practicability; because, were the order literally and fully enforced, their lordships, while in such committee, were required to

Tuesday, April 2. sit, each in their proper places, according [MINUTES.] Lord Jolin Thynne took to their ranks and degrees; a proceeding the oaths and his seat on his re-election which, in that new house, their lordships for Bath.-Mr. Creevey gave notice, that would find it rather difficult to carry into he would to-morrow move for some fureffect.

ther documents relative to the balances in Earl Spencer observed that, circum- the hands of the late hon. Keith Stuart. stanced as their lordships were at present, | Lord Brome brought in a bill for improthe proceeding adverted to would be to-ing the port of Ipswich in Suffolk, which tally impracticable. He recollected, that was read a first time.--Dr. Duigevan gare some time since, a commitee had been ap- notice, that he would to-morrow move for pointed to settle and arrange the proper leave to bring in a bill for the 'amendment seats for the respective orders of the peer- of Queen Anne's bounty act, in Ireland. age in that house; but no report had yet Mr. S. Bourne, pursuant to order, presentbeen made upon the subject; that coin- ed an account of tbe application of the mittee should be referred to. In the house surplus revenue of the Isle of Man...Oru in which they formerly sat, the respective dered to be printed.-'The innkeepers bill places were regulwly arranged; every peer went through a committee, and was ordered dinew bis proper place when it was neces- to be reported to-morrow. The customs sary he should sit in it; but, in the pre- duty bill, the American treaty bill, and sent house, that being not yet settled, such the Bengal council bill, were read a third a proceeding was impossible.

time and passed. The Lord Chancellor spoke in explana- [Irish Muitia EN LISTING Bill.] The tion, and slightly adverted to the incon- Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the orveniencies which must sometimes arise der of the day for the house going into a from too literal an enforcement of the or-committee on this bill."




Sir Juhn Newport said, that having al- I thought the hon. bart. was however misready fully stated to the house his opinion taken in one point, as he was pretty sure there on this subject, and having found that the was an allowance given at the time of every sense of the house was for passing this embarkation, to carry the soldiers' wives bill, he should not now take up their time home. Notwithstanding the difficulty that with recapitulating the arguinents he had, he saw in the adoption of the suggestion, before offered; he rose now merely for the he should certainly give it his most serious purpose of suggesting to the right hon, the consideration. chancellor of the exchequer a measure that Sir John Newport said in explanation, he thought would have the most important that the allowance given to soldiers' wives effect in increasing the disposable force of on embarkation was a guinea and a half;' the empire from Ireland, or rather in en-tbis might be barely sufficient to carry couraging those soldiers, who were not now them to the nearest Irish port, but they disposable, to become so. The measure landed completely destituie, and he now begged leave most earnestly to re-obliged immediately to have recourse to commend, was to make such a provision begging. for the wives and children of those who Colonel Bagwell confirmed the statement volunteered, as would at least remove the of the hon. bart. as to the great degree of principal objection wbich now stands in misery which the wives of not only the the way of their volunteering. The wives Irish soldiers in the regular army, but even of the soldiers in the Irish militia and army in the militia and army of reserve experiof reserve now receive an allowance of two enced. During the last war, four shillings shillings a week, and formerly received a week was allowed to the wives of the four; but, from the moment any of these militia, which was sufficient to keep them soldiers volunteered for general service, this from the necessity of begging; but since it allowance ceased. If this great discou- was reduced to two, that allowance had ragement was removed, he was sure they been insufficient. He thought there could would be much more ready to enter the be no greater encouragement to volunteerregular army. At present, the misery that ing from the militia, than granting was entailed on Ireland, under the system provision to the families of the volunteers. which now prevails, was most dreadful. The house then went into a committee The face of the country was covered with on the bill, when some trifling alterations the wives and children of soldiers begging were agreed to, and the report ordered to their bread, There was hardly ever any be received to-morrow.-Adjourned. considerable embarkation of troops from Portsmouth or Plymouth, that from 800 to 1,000 soldiers' wives were not turned loose to beg their way as well as they

Wednesday, April 3, could to their own country. As most of [MINUTES.) Mr. Adamwas heard in con them landed at the nearest Irish port of tinuation in the Scots appeal, Cathcart v. the Cork and Waterford, he had often been an earl of Cassilis, on the part of the respon, eye-witness of the extent of the evil which dent. The several bills upon the table were he now wished to be redressed.

forwarded in their respective stages. The The Chancellor of the Exchequer allowed innkeepers' rates bill, and several private that the suggestion of the hon. bart. was bills, were brought up from the commons, of the utmost importance, and deserved and read a first time. A person from the the most serious consideration. He was post office presented an account of the net not then prepared to give any opinion on revenue of the post-office for 20 years, the subject, but he perceived that many ending the 5th of Jan. 1805. Ordered to difficulties stood in the way of the adop- lie on the table.----Adjourned, tion of this suggestion. He was aware of the distress which was often felt in Ireland on account of there being no established

Wednesday, April 3. system of poor laws in that country as there is in this; but he did not know how [MINUTES.] Sir John Anderson brought parliament could grant a specific allowauce up the report of the committee ou the to the families of Irish soldiers, which was bakers' bill; which was agreed to, and the not granted to the families of the soldiers bill ordered to be engrossed. Mr. Manef the rest of the united Kingdom, le ning obtained leave to bring in a bill for




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rendering more effectual the provisions of enclosures; also, a copy of a letter fro the London dock act. On the motion of the navy board to the admirally, dated is Dr. Duigenan, leave was given to bring in April, 1805, in answer to the abovemen a bill to amend the act for building Glebe tioned letter of sir H. Popham ; also, houses in Ireland. The following papers, copy of a letter from sir H. Popham t on the motion of Mr. Creevey, were order the navy board, dated Feb. 28, 1805; also ed to be laid before the house, viz. A a copy of a letter from sir H. Popham to copy of the power of attorney, or other the navy board, dated March 26, 1805, with instrument, granted by the lords of the the answer of the board thereto. treasury to the then lordi advocate of Scot- Mr. Grey said, he did not rise to object Jand, now lord justice Clerk, to prosecute to the production of these or any other or give discharges for the claims made by papers that might tend to elucidate the government on the late admiral Keith subject, but merely to remark, that seveStewart: an account of all sums of money, ral weeks had elapsed since a variety of or securities for money, paid by the repre-papers moved for on both sides had been sentatives of the late admiral Keith Stew- presented, sioce which no inquiry had art to the lord justice Clerk, in pur- taken place. By such motions as the presuance of the said power of attorney, spe- sent the discussion might be postponed to cifying the times when such sums or secu- an indefinite period. rities were paid; a copy of the account Mr. Dickenson stated the grounds of his settled and discharged with the represen- motion, which were, that sir H. Popham tatives of the late admiral Keith Stewart, having discovered some imperfections in by the lord justice Clerk acting under the the original report of the navy board, had aforesaid authority; a copy of the petition written to the admiralty on the subject, from the town of Edinburgh to the lords and that the amended report had not been of the treasury, praying that 21,0001., be received by the admiralty until yesterday, granted out of the balances due from the Some further conversation ensued belale admiral Keith Ste for the pur- tween Mr. Grey, the Chancellor of the poses therein mentioned ; together with Exchequer, Mr. Dickenson, and Mr. Kinthe reference made by the lords of the naird ; in the course of which Mr. Kintreasury to the court of exchequer in Scot-naird intimated his intention of bringing land on the subject. On the motion of forward a motion relative to sir H. PopMr. S. Bourne, it was likewise ordered, ham, on Tuesday, the 7th of May next. that there be laid before the house a copy Mr. Dickenson's motions were then agreed of such further proceedings as may have to, been bad by the lords of the treasury for [IRISH UNION COMMISSIONERS.] Sir the recorery of any sum due to the public John Newport rose to make liis promised from the representatives of the late admiral motion for the production of a copy of Keith Stewart. On the motion of Mr. the case laid before the attorney and soli, Giles, it was ordered, that there be laid citor general of England on the 16th of before the house a return of the number May, 1801, by direction of the commis, of effective men raised under the additional sioners for awarding compensation in Ire, defence act from the 1st of Feb. last to the land in consequence of the union, relative period of the latest return, stating the to the claim for compensation from the atnuinber of men raised per week, and spe- torney and solicitor general of Ireland; citying those provided by the parish offi- together with a copy of the opinion of the cers, and those procured by recruiting attorney and solicitor general of England officers; as likewise the number that had upon this case. The reason which in, enlisted into his majesty's forces for gene- duced him to bring forward this motion, ral service. Mr. Bagwell brought in the the hon, bart, stated to be this, that the bill for regulating Irish freeholders, which house should be put in possession of the was read a first time. The innkeepers’ bill, nature and conduct of this singular com, and the Irish spirit permit bill, were read a unission. It appeared, that notwithstandthird time and passed,

ing their appeal to the judgment of the (CONDUCT OF Sir Home Popnam. Mr. attorney and solicitor general of England, Dickenson jun. moved, that there be laid they had acted in direct contradiction to the before the house a copy of a letter from opinion delivered by those learned gentlesir Home Pophain to the secretary of the men. But still more, and it was particu. admiralty, dated 25th Feb. 1805, with its larly necessary to call the attention of par.

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