uttered any such language as could convey the arbitrary and despotic doctrines brought | have brought forward those tyrannical, desforward by my hon. and learned relation be-potic, and oppressive doctrines which he suphind me (Mr. George Ponsonby); but as poses me to have delivered. Of having my hon. and learned relation is himself so competent, it is not necessary for me to trouble you with many observations. But I may just be permitted to ask, whether there be any thing extraordinary or inconsistent with justice, any thing inconsistent with the character of a British lawyer, any thing at all tyrannical or despotic, in having a person accused of a most aggravated crime secured previous to his trial? Could this be called a prejudging of the cause? As well might we be accused of prejudging a criminal, because we found it necessary to shut him up in a prison previous to the proofs of his guilt being fully or fairly considered. Here, however, we were talking of a person not accused, but found guilty. I put it to the house, whether, after the circumstances of Trotter's conduct were known, it was at all decent to employ him in a situation which he had previously employed to the most improper purposes. If Trotter was not dismissed, he ought surely to have been suspended from his office, till the inquiry in this house was closed. The right hon. gent. has advanced nothing to shew that it was not his duty to have followed this course. His whole speech, indeed, was nothing but idle rant and fury, containing nothing addressed to the reason of the house, nothing which affords the least proof that the motion of my hon. friend should not be adopted, as the natural consequence of the previous resolutions. Conceiving, then, this to be the case, I shall support the motion as called for by every principle of honour, every demand of justice, and every feeling of regard for our character. Mr. George Ponsonby-Mr. Speaker; after being so pointedly and personally alluded to by the right hon. gent., I hope I shall be favoured with the attention of the house for a few moments. Since first I had the honour of a seat in this house, I will not attempt to deny that it has ever been my ardent wish to stand high in the esteem of all the members of whom it is composed. After the vote of Monday, however, a vote so honourable to the character of this assembly, a vote which has exalted its character among all orders in the state who value independence and worth, I confess, that to stand well in your opinion has become a matter of the utmost anxiety. The right hon. gent. has chosen to say, that if I had been a British lawyer I never could possibly at any time, sir, or under any circumstances, suspended Mr. Trotter till his innocence or country continues such as it now is, I proguilt was fully ascertained? I say, in such fess that I am not satisfied that we have a suspension there was no prejudice. There gained what our grand struggle of Monday was, on the contrary, that strict regard to so justly entitled us to expect. Let me sup1 the proper application of the public money, pose that this intimacy continues, and that with which the employment of a person the minister employs his influence to misreeven suspected of malversation does not present and vilify the decisions of this house. appear to me to be very consistent. If the Let me suppose that the press is hired into right hon. member had acted in this way I the service, and that the public are told, in am fully sensible that neither the house nor publication after publication, by the friends the country would have blamed him for his and creatures of ministers, that lord Melville arbitrary or despotic proceedings. I enter- has been run down by a desperate faction in tain a sincere respect for the right hon. gen- this house that he has been condemned tleman's talents. Indeed it is not conceiva- unheard-that he offered to call evidence to ble that without great talents he should, at prove the falsity of the accusations against so early a period of life, have risen to that him, but was refused-that, in short, he is elevation in the state in which he is now a much persecuted, and much injured man. placed. With all my respect for his abili- Let me suppose that, by these delusions, ties, however, I must insist, that when he the strong sentiments of honourable indignanext honours my observations with his no- tion which now actuate the public mind are tice, he will take a little pains to state ac- a good deal deadened, and that the minister, curately what I say, for I protest, with all availing himself of these favourable changes, my esteem for his talents, I should not relish should, during the recess of parliament, the idea of his making speeches for me.- venture on the daring measure of once more Having said this with respect to the arbi- recommending lord Melville to the service trary doctrines of which he accuses me, I of his sovereign, and that his majesty, shall, before I sit down say a few words on fatally yielding to this recommendation, the general question before the house. My should once more receive him into his counhon. friend seems to me to have framed his cils. Let me suppose this, which is not by motion on the most consistent principles. any means an impossible case, and what He very properly says, that though the right then is to become of all our resolutions, of hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Pitt) has intimated all our efforts to stem the growth of corrupto us the resignation of lord Melville's situation, of all our exertions to bring peculation of first lord of the admiralty, he has tors, however elevated their rank, or exnot told us, what is much more important, what is much more intimately connected with the resolutions of Monday night, that lord Melville has closed his political life; that he is never more to have any share in the administration of the affairs of this great empire. We all know what are the conpections of the noble lord, how far extended are the resources of his influence. None of us are ignorant how intimately he possesses the confidence of the ministers of the crown, and how anxious they would, at any time, be to receive his advice and support. tensive their influence, to an ignominious punishment? It is to guard equally against this and any similar case that I am inclined to support the motion of my hon. friend. The right hon. gent, strongly recommends to us the propriety of leniency in our proceedings; I am no enemy to leniency when properly exerted, and I have no wish that the noble lord should be treated with unnecessary severity; but, before I can be lenient, I must know that the cause of public justice is secure. I must be satisfied that the noble lord shall not again have it in his We have, independent of a motion power to have any weight in our national similar to that of my hon. friend, no security councils. I wish to have the public money against his return to power, a thing totally placed safely beyond the reach of the corinconsistent with the resolutions of Monday, rupt and profligate. I am willing to shew and which would render them mere waste as much tenderness as possible to the noble paper on the journals. But even admitting lord, though I confess I never had the honthat lord Melville did nominally retire, let our to exchange one word with him in the it be kept in mind that he still continues a whole course of my life; but I shall be a privy councellor, as my hon. friend below party in lenity to no man till I have providme (Mr. Grey) has already very properly re-ed against peculation among great public marked. While the connection of the no- men. I am clear, sir, for making every ble lord with the administration of the public delinquent refund what he has un justly obtained out of the public purse, and I shall certainly support my hon. friend in all his motions for carrying through this glorious work of reform. While I shall support the motions for calling lord Melville and Mr. Trotter to a strict account, I shall be equally a friend to any investigation of the control exercised by the treasury over the inferior offices. It is the duty of the treasury to see that negligence and waste do not exist in the inferior departments. I do not impute corrupt practices to the right hon. gent. at the head of the treasury, for I do not like to impute corruption to any one without strong evidence; but I do see from the report, that the superintendance of the treasury has, in many instances, been criminally relaxed. The rank of the commissioners is not to screen them from inquiry; and I trust the future proceedings of the house will fully prove the truth of this opinion. Though I am a representative for another part of the kingdom, I shall feel no hesitation in saying that I consider myself as much a representative for Great Britain as for Ireland, and on all occasions shall endeavour to act on this liberal principle. If the motion is persisted in, it certainly shall have my cordial vote. Mr. Canning explained, and stated that lord Melville was as effectually excluded from his majesty's councils, by what had already taken place, as he could be by any resolution of the house to that effect. navy office had assured the hon. member, that after every research in his power, and to the best of his recollection, no draft had ever been paid without specifying the service. Since August, 1803, the mode of conducting the business had been varied, and sums were written off at once by the bank from the treasurer's account to that of the sub-paymasters of the navy, which accounts were kept also with that corporation.-The hon. gent. mentioned that allusions had been made to certain communications in which he was reported to be a party: but herein he begged to set the house right, and, as far as respected him, he could assure them they were founded in mistake. What might have passed with any other gentlemen they could themselves best explain. With respect to Mr. Trotter and Mr. Wilson, every apprehension that they could any longer abuse the confidence of their em ployer, or misapply the public money, were at an end. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had sent an order this morning to the bank, prohibiting any money being given to any person connected with the naval department, without a draft signed by himself. The hon. gent said, that he had voted in favour of the resolutions, because he thought it his duty, because the noble lord, in his opinion, had committed abuses; but he was unwilling to go farther till he should obtain more evidence than the house had yet before them of the motives from which that noble lord had acted. That his lordship had permitted the commission of abuses he was ready to admit, and had voted accordingly, but that his conduct had proceeded from corrupt motives, he thought remained yet to be proved; and notwithstanding, therefore, the vote he had given on Monday night, he could by no means go along with the hon. gent. in his motion of to-night. He could not help recollecting how long the noble lord had been an able and active servant of the public. From this recollection, he had given his former vote with regret; and, from the same circumstance, could not be induced to go farther, unless from the most positive evidence of the corrupt intention of the noble lord, which evidence was not at present of such a nature as to justify any far Mr. Samuel Thornton rose, in consequence of the allusion made this night and on a preceding one, to the evidence of an experienced and meritorious officer of the bank before the commissioners of naval enquiry. That officer (Mr. Newland) had there intimated that the drafts passed by the treasurer had not always expressed the service on which they were drawn, conformably to the provisions of the act of parliament. If this were the case, the bank were certainly to blame, as he held in his hand a copy of the power under which the paymaster had passed his drafts from the year 1786 until the resignation of lord Melville; this power stated in express words, "that he should be particularly careful to specify in each and every draft the service for which the money was drawn." The fact was, that Mr. New-ther proceedings. land, though at the head of the cashier's department of the bank, was not the officer under whose inspection the detail of this branch of business was carried on, and therefore had only delivered a matter of opinion. The officer who paid the drafts from the Mr. Barham was of opinion, that the allusion made by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) to the two honourable persons whose naval and military conduct had been the subject of inquiry in that house the beginning of last war, was very injudicious, and could serve no useful purpose. The part which he himself had taken in that discussion he had been prompted to by what he had at that time conceived to be a sense of duty, however painful he had felt the task. The two noble lords, however, had been amply acquitted by a vote of the house, and had since justified the good opinion of the public. In regard to the question now before the house, he thought this step moved by the hon. gent. absolutely necessary to carry into effect the resolutions formerly voted. It was by such a measure only they could tell his majesty that such persons were improper to hold any office of trust or confidence. This opinion, he maintained, originated in no motives of personal animosity to the noble lord. Hardly any, he believed, had fewer enemies than that noble lord, and far should he be from supporting any measure that he thought had its origin in the smallest degree from a rancorous or persecuting spirit. On the contrary, this, he maintained, was a measure of justice, and essential to the honour and dignity of the house. He hoped, therefore, the motion would be persisted in. He quiries were also to be instituted. should be told that it was to prevent the noble lord from ever again returning to his majesty's councils; but there was no probability, in his opinion, that he would again be restored. Indeed, he said, it might not be impossible but farther inquiries might lead to discoveries that might render an impeachment necessary. He did not by any means say that such would be the effect of farther inquiry, but that such might be the effect was not impossible. Should such, however, be the effect, it would then be time enough to have recourse to such measures, for at present he deemed thein premature. It had been said, that the resolutions of the former night would prove ineffectual, would be attended with no material advantage, unless followed up by a measure of the description of that proposed by the hon. gent.; but it was generally understood that night, he contended, when those resolutions passed, that no farther measures were to be adopted. Had this motion immediately followed the resolutions, it might have been considered as a necessary corollary to those resolutions, and might, as such, have Mr. Bankes disavowed any political con- met his support; but the necessity of the nexions that could warp his judgment. on measure no longer existed. The step proany great question of justice or policy. The posed to the house was, besides, contrary to vote he had given on Monday night had all the precedents with which he was acbeen purely disinterested, and had not arisen quainted. So far as his knowledge or exfrom the influence of any party. He dis- perience extended, it never had been the approved of the abuses that had taken place, usage of the house to address his majesty and had voted accordingly. He would take against persons out of office. Such was the the liberty, however, though unconnected case in respect to sir Robert Walpole, lord with any party, to recommend to the hon. Ranelagh, and others whom the hon. gent. gent. not to persist in his present motion. mentioned, against whom no address of reWas the hon. gent. certain that the circum-moval had been presented to his majesty, stances of the case, taken in the whole, though previously perhaps in the contemplawould warrant such a measure? At any tion of parliament, when no longer in ofrate, he thought it extremely ill-timed; and fice. Indeed the very idea was sufficiently the same sense of duty that had prompted absurd, because it was not possible to remove him to vote with the hon. gent. on Monday from office those who were in no office. night would also induce him to resist the At all events, if the matter was to undergo present motion. The design of the ad- a full discussion, as intimated by the hon. journment on the former night, was avowed-gent., he would much rather delay any farly to decline any measure on the part of the house till they should see if his majesty would, from the suggestions of his own royal breast, take any step that might supersede the necessity of any further operations on the part of the house. The result had been favourable to the wishes of the house, and had rendered, in his opinion, this measure unnecessary. But why, he asked, such eagerness to follow up the blow that had been already given? for this, he understood, was but a part of the measures that were intended to be adopted, and that other en ther proceedings till the result of those inquiries should be ascertained. When the house should have the whole before them, they could then more justly estimate the degree of odium that was to be attached to a conduct which, though irregular, and in violation of an act of parliament, might yet admit of many circumstances of mitigation. In such a discovery he declared he would have much more pleasure than he experienced before in the vote he gave in favour of the resolutions. Mr. Windham, though not generally in the habit of agreeing with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, (for he and the hon. gent. were rarely on the same side of the question, though they often sat on the same bench,) agreed with him in one point at present. If the qualification proposed could be acceded to, consistently with the feelings of the house, the motion made by his hon, friend should not be brought forward. What gentlemen would have agreed to on the last night was exactly the same they were so desirous to put off this night. The only object was to ascertain whether the proceeding recommended was in substance the same as the motion, which was more consistent with the custom and regular form of the house. He censured those who had recourse to argument founded on delicacy and soft sentiment, which should never be introduced or countenanced in a grave assembly. He was less interested for the noble lord from private motives than many others, though he was not uninterested. But when that interest was made use of to influence the decision of a question, of which was the best mode for the house to do its duty, he could not listen to it. If this resolution was a necessary corollary the other night, he saw no reason why it should not be a necessary corollary now. The motion went far beyond what had been done, inasmuch as what had been done was no security for the perpetual exclusion of the noble lord, though it was to be expected he would not be reinstated. The only excuse that could be offered to the public for not following up the resolution agreed to on the other night was, that in the progress of the future investigation matter of extenuation may come out. He did not think that could be. He thought the house justified in the vote of the last night, because the whole of the case was before them. If he did not think so, God forbid that he should object to any thing that could place the case in a fuller or purer view! There was nothing to impeach the decision then made on the fairest motives: he should, therefore, require a promise or declaration, which would render it impossible to restore lord Melville. Otherwise, he had such a hold of those who were in power; they were so linked and connected together, that an attempt may be made to counteract what the house had done. One instance was well known, in which, after a censure more strong than that now passed upon lord Melville, the noble person recovered his situation, and the highest honours of the country were showered on him. What the house pronounced in its VOL. IV. best judgment should therefore not be given up under less than an express pledge for what was implied in the resolution of the former night. It was, therefore, necessary to follow up the resolutions, in order to have security for the future. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had said, that it ought to be a rule not to proceed with passion and violence; a good rule, certainly; but extremely ill observed on the part of the right hon. gent. himself. Had they gone beyond the line? If they had, let it be shewn by argument, and let it not rest upon the intemperate assertions of the right hon. gent. Parliament had made a great effort, such a one as, he was persuaded, would entitle them to the thanks and gratitude of the whole kingdom; he wished that they should continue those efforts; he wished to take security against their falling off. It would be a lamentable instance of the mutability of opinion, if they should forfeit, by indifference or langour, the high honours which their conduct on the preceding evening had obtained them from all sorts of people, honours" which should be worn now in. their newest gloss." The right hon. gent. had indulged himself in the use of some strong expressions against the force of popular prejudice and clamour; in that he fully coincided with him. To yield upon any occasion to public clamour, so far as to condemn any one upon it, would be, in his opinion, one of the meanest and most unjust acts of which a deliberative body could be capable. But as the noble lord had not, as he would contend, been condemned under the influence of public clamour, he conceived it the duty of the house to proceed and follow up their resolutions of Monday, by agreeing to the motion of his hon. friend. Leaving out of the question all idea of participation in the profits derived from the use of the public monies, and looking only to the abstract crime, the bare and naked violation of an act of parliament, still he would maintain, that the house was in duty bound, if they valued consistency, if they valued the maintenance of their own honour, to proceed and to pass the motion made by his hon. friend as a necessary inference and corollary from the resolutions to which they had agreed on Monday. Gentlemen would do well to recollect, that they were not in a court of strict judicial proceedings, but in a court where the interests, the honour, and the feelings of the people were to be considered. They were not to be fettered by the ordinary maxims of the judicial tribunals, A a |